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[Leatra]

You went through OOO, then, did you, Leatra? Was it really fun when the enemy who was tougher than you was at the end of the dungeon? Did you ever actually go back to any of those 95% complete dungeons to beat that last boss and get some sparse loot?

It was really fun. I actually ran away from some dungeon because of a tough boss. I couldn't defeat him so I ran away and after sometime I returned (not for the loot, for the quest. I had around 200k septims) and defeated him a little easier but I used hit and run tactics. If it was vanilla Oblivion, I could just hack&slash him. I ran away from a lot of there places but I didn't return to all of them because I left playing around level 17. I rembember a point where I spent one hour trying to take down marauders and bandits in an ayleid ruin. They were attacking each other and I was trying to kill the weak and ranged guys like archers with my bow from above, from something like a balcony, and I couldn't kill them. It usually ended with a orc bashing my skull with his warhammer, taking away half of my health and an archer finishing me off. I reloaded to an earlier save, leveled up a little, returned there and killed all of them. I was waiting to kill them for like 3 days. When I got some decent equipment (earning money was difficult at OOO so I didn't have good equipment) I killed them. I have never felt something like this in vanilla. I actually got angry at some guys who didn't even exist

Also loot is valuable in OOO because earning money wasn't easy. You could make piles of septims in some minutes at Oblivion but in OOO you have to use your money carefully because deadric and glass equipment isn't easy to find.

[Grakelin]

My current OOO run is level 4 and is swimming with more septims than he knows what to do with. In one case, I was stumped by an enemy boss (Goblin Jim) not because he was tough and I needed my wits to survive, but because he kept healing himself. And he had more magicka regen than I had attack power. Even with witsplinter, a knife I looted off the women's gang in Anvil which does damage to it directly. To kill him, I had to run around a high cliff and hope he tripped and fell. It was actually really boring.


On the other hand, the AI remained stupid, so I was able to lure a Sylvan Ranger (who, actually, I hadn't meant to find - he just started chasing me mindlessly across the entire world) to just outside Kvatch, where I ran in circles while shopkeepers pummelled him to death with fists (the Imperial Guards were there, too, but I think they must have hit eachother by accident or something, because they fought instead - which still worked out fine for me). His loot - a healthy collection of Elven Arrows which I immediately sold to one of my saviours for all of her money, and a pile of heavy armour. Unfortunately, I'm using a light armour-wearer, so I had to sell it all. In fact, there was more loot than I could carry. I left a lot of it on the road.

I do like OOO, don't get me wrong. It's entertaining being locked in battle with highwaymen for several minutes, with nothing but my block skill and a pile of "Restore Health" potions between me and death. But there was so much focus on the "Haha, let's make bosses super tough so people have to come back later, haha!" that many of them are of equal difficulty to their vanilla incarnations, except for the boss at the end, who is of variable strength regardless of his location in the world, forcing you to walk back through the empty dungeon virtually empty-handed for your efforts. After you savescum during the trial and error phase. The exceptions to this seem to be Amazons and Sylvan Rangers. Who hang out outside their dungeon and chase you over the worldmap for all eternity.

[DeKaFu]

Has there been any screens or footage with Argonians at all? I'm curious how they look this time. I think there was some Khajiit shown briefly, though only from torso upwards, so not entirely sure if they've got human-like legs or the Morrowindish ones.

There's apparently a (small, blurry) concept art of an Argonian floating around. The legs appear to be somewhere in between... They're not 100% human like in Oblivion, but they're not properly digitigrade either. More like humanoid with a small extra bend in them. How/If this actually translates to the in-game models and animations is anyone's guess.

[Vattic]

I know the arguments against digitigrade legs will be like those for spears but I hope they've got them simply because they look neat.

[Virtz]

I have mixed feeling about digitigrade legs in Morrowind. On one hand they're neat and make beast races more unique. On the other the beast characters walk like they're wearing flippers or can't bend their legs right and they've got no shoes for some reason. Human feet weren't made to wear shoes while everything else is meant to walk barefoot, they should all have their own variations of footwear.

Though I'd still take Morrowind style over making them the same as all the other races so that the animators and modellers can do even less work.

[Silfurdreki]

Digitgrade legs in Morrowind were neat (except maybe their animation), put me down as another fan wanting them to return in Skyrim.

As long as they refrain from giving Argonian females breats I'll be happy, though. I mean seriously, why on Earth would a race that lays eggs have breats?!

Yeah, it's a bit nitpicky, and I guess it saved the modellers some time, but seriously it annoyed the hell out of me every time I met an Argonian female, especially after finding a note referencing 'hatchlings'

[Lysabild]

Digitgrade legs in Morrowind were neat (except maybe their animation), put me down as another fan wanting them to return in Skyrim.

As long as they refrain from giving Argonian females breats I'll be happy, though. I mean seriously, why on Earth would a race that lays eggs have breats?!

Yeah, it's a bit nitpicky, and I guess it saved the modellers some time, but seriously it annoyed the hell out of me every time I met an Argonian female, especially after finding a note referencing 'hatchlings'

Secondary sex characteristics does not dictate a use.


They might have boobs for the simple reason that men found it attractive, evolution works like that.

Besides, if they have 5 digit hands, vocal chords, walk upright, has the same brain size and capacity and is warm-blooded, where goes the crossing line? Can't have evolved to be so similar from so different places or up against eachother, and if they're then god-made why does the boobies matter?

[Rose]

and it's not just a little bit of re-modelling.

every item of female clothing would need to be made twice.

[Virtz]

Digitgrade legs in Morrowind were neat (except maybe their animation), put me down as another fan wanting them to return in Skyrim.

As long as they refrain from giving Argonian females breats I'll be happy, though. I mean seriously, why on Earth would a race that lays eggs have breats?!

Yeah, it's a bit nitpicky, and I guess it saved the modellers some time, but seriously it annoyed the hell out of me every time I met an Argonian female, especially after finding a note referencing 'hatchlings'

Secondary sex characteristics does not dictate a use.


They might have boobs for the simple reason that men found it attractive, evolution works like that.

Besides, if they have 5 digit hands, vocal chords, walk upright, has the same brain size and capacity and is warm-blooded, where goes the crossing line? Can't have evolved to be so similar from so different places or up against eachother, and if they're then god-made why does the boobies matter?

They ain't warm-bloods though, they often refer to non-Argonians as warm-bloods. Plus they've still got tails to keep them walking upright and their vocal cords are somewhat different.

And I'm pretty sure evolution doesn't work like that. You don't develop a single mammalian feature from nothing, especially if that feature is functionally useless. Plus Argonians have already got different scale patterns and head features to dictate attractiveness.

and it's not just a little bit of re-modelling.

every item of female clothing would need to be made twice.

Then make them wear male clothing?

Though that's wrong either way, the clothing in Oblivion morphed to accomodate different body builds (including helmets that stretched out over Argonian heads), so I really think they could make them accomodate null boob sizes.

[Silfurdreki]

It's not just the whole breasts-on-reptiles issue, but also that Argonian females in the cleavage-revealing dresses in Oblivion looked creepy as hell to me for some reason.

On the clothing modelling issue, I think that having separate male and female versions of the same clothing item is stupid anyway, just make each a separate set and let both males and females wear them. Then you can include a bonus quirky transvestite for some quest, and you effectively double the amount of apparel! Win-win, I say. Of course this relies on the fact that they can morph away breasts from female-specific clothing (or morph breasts into male-specific clothing), but if they can stretch helmets over Argonian heads, I don't see why they couldn't do that.

[Lysabild]

They ain't warm-bloods though, they often refer to non-Argonians as warm-bloods. Plus they've still got tails to keep them walking upright and their vocal cords are somewhat different.

And I'm pretty sure evolution doesn't work like that. You don't develop a single mammalian feature from nothing, especially if that feature is functionally useless. Plus Argonians have already got different scale patterns and head features to dictate attractiveness.

Right so its just completely non-sensical fantasy as always.

Evolution does not "plan" to improve an organism's fitness to survive.[150][151] For example, an incorrect way to describe giraffe evolution is to say that giraffe necks grew longer over time because they needed to reach tall trees. Evolution doesn't see a need and respond to it. A mutation resulting in longer necks would be more likely to benefit an animal in an area with tall trees than an area with short trees, and thus enhance the chance of the animal surviving to pass on its longer-necked genes. Tall trees could not cause the mutation nor would they cause a higher percentage of animals to be born with longer necks.[152] In the giraffe example, the evolution of a long neck may equally well have been driven by sexual selection, proposing that the long necks evolved as a secondary sexual characteristic, giving males an advantage in "necking" contests over females.[153]

From wikipedia, common misconceptions page.

[Virtz]

I didn't say anything about evolution being planned. And what it basically confirms is that you can't grow boobs out of nothing. In order for natural selection to bring in boobs of noticable size, there'd have to first be Argonians with even the tiniest of boobs. They ain't gonna have those though, because they ain't mammals. Plus with the existence of wildly varying scale patterns and head features, the last thing they'd look at would be a pair of barely noticable chest protrusions.

[KaguroDraven]

I could point out that neither Argoneans or any other species 'evolved' in the real life sense of the word, and they all mortal sentient creatures come from the residual energies of ancient spirits, but I won't/

[DeKaFu]

The whole "clothing magically transforms based on gender" thing in Oblivion irritated me to no end. If I kill someone and take their pants, it's because I liked their pants. Don't turn it into a completely different article of clothing once I put it on! I want my pants damnit. 

Also, if they're capable of doing that and don't consider it immersion-breaking, why the heck can't they make boots that turn into foot-guards once a digitigrade race puts them on?

They're going to have to come to terms with digitigrade feet for the werewolves anyway, they might as well start now.

[Cecilff2]

Word of God on the Beth forums confirmed a while back that the Argonians are Ovoviviparous when the issue came up.