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[Karnewarrior]

Magic is too common for anyone to think about making guns. Anyone smart enough to invent gunpowder would probably be busy thinking of new ways to make the badass magic even more badass. It would come in time, but that's alot of time and most likely guns would alter the entire face of the game, probably not for the better, as well as step on the toes of Lionhead, who have been prettymuch uncontested in that setting for a while. So it's not going to happen.

Why are we talking about this? Maybe a dwemer gun. Maybe.

As for how the econony is crap, Well, that's because this is a RPG. Although I would enjoy having a working economy. Particularly the ability to buy out EVERYTHING with the sw33t l00ts obtained from raiding people graves, and just generally fuck everything everywhere financially.

And the health system is total crap. It's always total crap. I would like a combat more based around deflecting eachothers attacks than going in "guns" blazing and trying to decapitate while taking hit after hit and being gutted. Walk it off, it's just your intestines. Nothing you use often.

Speaking of which a hunger system could be implemented, but I'm not sure how to do that successfully.

[Sordid]

Anyone smart enough to invent gunpowder would probably be busy thinking of new ways to make the badass magic even more badass.

Unless they were, y'know, not a mage.

It would come in time, but that's alot of time and most likely guns would alter the entire face of the game, probably not for the better

And what exactly are you basing that probability on?

as well as step on the toes of Lionhead, who have been prettymuch uncontested in that setting for a while.

Yes, and that would be a terrible thing... why, exactly?

As for how the econony is crap, Well, that's because this is a RPG.

No, it's because Bethsoft are too lazy to do a proper one, as evidenced by the existence of mods such as Living Economy.

[G-Flex]

It would probably only take one of those items rather than two, once they know what they're looking for

Why do you think this is necessarily true? Seriously, you're applying logic that doesn't necessarily, well, apply here. Even if the rules regarding alchemy can be studied empirically, that doesn't mean they would make sense according to real-world chemistry.

You realize, of course, a splinter or separate civilization could develop along technological lines, developing the scientific method and mass production, and still conduct a reduced amount of magical research in selected disciplines, under scientific principles, in order to provide a counter to magic-wielding empires. Or they could do research into how alchemy works.

This is almost exactly what the Dwemer did. They studied magic in a rational, logical, and empirical manner, while also advancing "mundane" technology (although in a world like TES, the distinction is pretty flimsy as they're all natural forces) and using the two to advance their society and transcend their state in various ways. Then someone upstairs got pissed or something and they disappeared.

[Nivim]

 Or they could have ascended, or they could have been turned to dust when their connection with the heart was broken...my memory tells me vaguely that last one is what I discovered last time I played the game.

[Shadowlord]

From what I remember, Kagrenac got all experimenty with the tools on the Heart, and managed to cause all the dunmer on that plane of existance to disappear, with nobody having any idea what happened to them (He missed the one which had gone off exploring in some other dimension at the time).

[Sordid]

It would probably only take one of those items rather than two, once they know what they're looking for

Why do you think this is necessarily true? Seriously, you're applying logic that doesn't necessarily, well, apply here. Even if the rules regarding alchemy can be studied empirically, that doesn't mean they would make sense according to real-world chemistry.

Well there is the ability to make single-ingredient potions in Oblivion.

From what I remember, Kagrenac got all experimenty with the tools on the Heart, and managed to cause all the dunmer on that plane of existance to disappear, with nobody having any idea what happened to them (He missed the one which had gone off exploring in some other dimension at the time).

Desperate is what he got. According to the surviving accounts, there had actually been a controversy going on about whether or not tapping the Heart was safe. He didn't use the tools on it until he had Nerevar and his cronies kicking down the door. It was now or never and he went for it.

[Soadreqm]

We're talking about the Mystery of the Dwarves again? The thread has gone a full circle!

I suppose Kagrenac might have accidentally erased his species from existence, but I don't really think so. Sotha Sil managed to figure out the tools, and he was reverse engineering Kagrenac's work. It's evidently possible to use the Heart without dying, and Kagrenac feels like the kind of guy to figure out how.

Also, "ascended to a higher plane" is a much happier ending for the coolest race in Elder Scrolls.

[Shadowlord]

The main reason I discount that is that you have to ask where they ascended to. Unless they wound up on an empty plane of existance, they'd have either ended up as daedra or aedra, and there'd be certain to have been repercussions.

If he was trying to power up every Dwemer with the tools to turn them into living gods, what if he accidentally got it backwards (in his haste) and instead of siphoning power from the Heart to the Dwemer, ran the process in reverse, resulting in the Dwemer appearing to vanish by transferring all of their energy/souls/whatever to the Heart.

[G-Flex]

It's evidently possible to use the Heart without dying, and Kagrenac feels like the kind of guy to figure out how.

Well, trying to do whatever they were doing to their race was only one thing they used the tools for; they were also trying to use it to activate the Numidium or whatever it was, right?

[Sordid]

The main reason I discount that is that you have to ask where they ascended to.

Oblivion's a big place, and not all of it is ruled by Daedric Princes. Heck, the empire itself even had a Realm of its own that it used as a battlemage training facility, the Battlespire. Bethsoft seem to have disowned that game, though. Pity. Having the empire rule not only the whole continent but also stretch across dimensions made it a lot more interesting.

Well, trying to do whatever they were doing to their race was only one thing they used the tools for; they were also trying to use it to activate the Numidium or whatever it was, right?

Not really sure if you'd need the tools for that. Tiber Septim managed to activate it even without the heart itself.

[Sergius]

Of couse NPCs aren't exactly able to fight at all in JA2.

You sure about that? Try punching Miguel, see what happens.

Miguel isn't "exactly" a civilian.

[G-Flex]

Not really sure if you'd need the tools for that. Tiber Septim managed to activate it even without the heart itself.

Yeah, they used the tools to tap the Heart in order to power it. Tiber Septim needed the Mantella (and whatever else?) to power in as a replacement for that.

[Sordid]

Of couse NPCs aren't exactly able to fight at all in JA2.

You sure about that? Try punching Miguel, see what happens.

Miguel isn't "exactly" a civilian.

You said NPCs, not civilians. While it's true that most NPCs are civlians, there is a distinction. Miguel's an NPC up until near the end of the game. Plus there are other talking NPCs that can fight. The General in Alma, for example. That woman running the child labor factory. The terrorists. Etc.

Not really sure if you'd need the tools for that. Tiber Septim managed to activate it even without the heart itself.

Yeah, they used the tools to tap the Heart in order to power it. Tiber Septim needed the Mantella (and whatever else?) to power in as a replacement for that.

Again, not really sure about that. The heart was built directly into the Numidium. Maybe they used the tools to connect it up, but I don't recall that being stated anywhere.

[Sergius]

Of couse NPCs aren't exactly able to fight at all in JA2.

You sure about that? Try punching Miguel, see what happens.

Miguel isn't "exactly" a civilian.

You said NPCs, not civilians. While it's true that most NPCs are civlians, there is a distinction. Miguel's an NPC up until near the end of the game. Plus there are other talking NPCs that can fight. The General in Alma, for example. That woman running the child labor factory. The terrorists. Etc.

Well, like you've said elsewhere on this thread, people should figure out what I mean, not just what I say literally. Since it was a generalization, obviously I meant most NPCs don't fight at all, unlike Morrowind and later where every single citizen will try to beat you with fisticuffs if you as much as grab a spoon without permission.

Non-combatants if you will. My point was that it may be easier to make NPCs not react to you punching a "plot punch NPC" if they aren't too keen in fighting you in the first place.

But they don't fight you, or run away, or anything, because you're supposed to be able to punch SOME people without everyone retaliating.

[Sordid]

Well, like you've said elsewhere on this thread, people should figure out what I mean, not just what I say literally.

Not the same thing. I certainly didn't use words like "at all". It's hard to argue that by "not at all" you mean "sometimes".

My point was that it may be easier to make NPCs not react to you punching a "plot punch NPC" if they aren't too keen in fighting you in the first place.

Oh sure. I think that has a lot to do with the general attitude the developers are trying to convey. See, in JA2 the civvies respect you, if for no other reason then because you're carrying a big gun (I was quite astonished to find that there is actually a gameplay mechanic that models that, NPCs are more cooperative if you carry a bigger gun). Even the quests you could get were appropriate to that. Break a mine's foreman's brother out of jail, exterminate man-eating tigers, hunt down some terrorists, that sort of thing. In TES, that's not the case at all. I'm fairly sure that in Skyrim I'll still get sent on a fetch quest to get some flowers even though I'm a legendary dragon-slayer wearing ebony armor and dual-wielding Eltonbrand and the Ebony Blade.