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[G-Flex]

And there already is an attack that targets stamina, namely punching.

I honestly couldn't stand this about Morrowind. Why does punching make someone more fatigued, but hitting them with a sword/hammer/spear doesn't? And why can't punching actually significantly hurt them? In the world of Morrowind, apparently not even Mike Tyson can cause you actual physical harm until you're knocked out cold.

[Tellemurius]

well then that would be easy as Mike would just have to hit you once and your fatigue will go south all the way, then you are stuck on the ground as he continues to rape you.

[G-Flex]

well then that would be easy as Mike would just have to hit you once and your fatigue will go south all the way

And yet it wouldn't actually hurt me. Even if Mike Tyson were supernaturally strong.

... In fact, strength didn't affect hand-to-hand combat at all in Morrowind. It was purely based on your skill. So silly.

[Sergius]

This relates to a major problem with this kind of RPG in general. Historically, the assumption in an RPG is that if you fight, it's to the death. There's no such thing as just punching a guy because you're mad at him, it's always "THIS MEANS WAR". I don't know how it's been recently, but we need to can the assumption that one dude hitting another dude means they want to kill each other.

Well, in Jagged Alliance 2 (rpg-ey game), there are at least a couple instances where you're supposed to punch someone in the face because they're scamming you ,for example, and at least one is in a crowded bar as far as I remember. Usually a couple hits were needed, you got mostly fatigue damage, and maybe 1 or 2 hit points, and they didn't fight back (a more complex game could have had an actual fist fight, and bystander NPCs wouldn't get in the way or draw their bazookas to blow you up, they'd probably make a crowd and cheer or something). And shooting them would really be a problem tho.

Of couse NPCs aren't exactly able to fight at all in JA2.

[Sordid]

Of couse NPCs aren't exactly able to fight at all in JA2.

You sure about that? Try punching Miguel, see what happens.

[Sensei]

In Morrowind hand-to-hand attacks did stamina damage, and you fell down when you had no stamina.

[Africa]

...and THEN the hits did physical damage. It basically made hand-to-hand a worthless skill, fit only for extreme challenge characters.

[Shadowlord]

Of course, using Morrowind's enchantment system, you could enchant a ton of ebony staves with an on-target shock damage and weakness to shock, and distribute those to the army in addition to their standard swords (which could also be enchanted with absorb health).

You'd just need a bunch of soul crystals for the enchanting, but someone with Azura's star and a high conjuring skill could summon high-level daedra and trap their souls repeatedly to do the job of mass-producing the lightning staves for the army.

There, you now have an army which can wield simple magic in battle without actually knowing magic. This is even better than inventing guns.

Of course, this doesn't work as well in Oblivion's enchantment system. It doesn't allow the player to enchant staves, or to make on-target enchantments for weapons - you'd have to enchant a bow instead to make a ranged lightning weapon. You could still make absorb health swords, though. Even though the casting cost is doubled, the largest soul size is also increased (although not doubled).

You could enchant the armor more easily in Oblivion, however - making each piece add a add a magic reflection effect, for instance, and give the soldiers constant effect rings and amulets, etc.

An army outfitted with the best heavy armor, enchanted to give them magic reflection along with additional trinkets for it, as well as magical weapons, is going to trump a mundane army, and even wizards if magic reflection is 100%+ (Although who knows what the absorb health would do if two 100% magic reflect guys hit each other).

[Farseer]

ITT: Lots of people who don't understand economies, mass production, technological progression etc etc and yet think they do, subsequently applying their faulty logic to try and cobble together an argument. I will not discuss this, it makes my brain hurt.

[Sordid]

ITT: Lots of people who don't understand economies, mass production, technological progression etc etc and yet think they do, subsequently applying their faulty logic to try and cobble together an argument. I will not discuss this, it makes my brain hurt.

Right. "You're all wrong, but I can't be arsed to explain to you why." That's convincing.

[Farseer]

I could make a long description on usage factors, ease of use, ability to mass produce, rarity of mages etc etc.

But then you guys would just go, "lol never explained magic system we win".

There's no point.

[Sordid]

Oh, so you know what counter-arguments the other side would make before you even make yours? Won Randi's million dollar prize yet, then? I think you should go for it, with the ability to see into the future like that it'll be a piece of cake for you.

[Farseer]

Oh, so you know what counter-arguments the other side would make before you even make yours? Won Randi's million dollar price yet, then? I think you should go for it, with the ability to see into the future like that it'll be a piece of cake for you.

It's easy to see into the future when it's going to be exactly like the past.

[Draignean]

ITT: Lots of people who don't understand economies, mass production, technological progression etc etc and yet think they do, subsequently applying their faulty logic to try and cobble together an argument. I will not discuss this, it makes my brain hurt.

Then why make this comment?

I will give the benefit of the doubt and not immediately leap to the conclusion that you did this to try and make yourself cooler than the whole thread and or troll.

[Shadowlord]

ITT: Lots of people who don't understand economies, mass production, technological progression etc etc and yet think they do, subsequently applying their faulty logic to try and cobble together an argument. I will not discuss this, it makes my brain hurt.

You realize, of course, a splinter or separate civilization could develop along technological lines, developing the scientific method and mass production, and still conduct a reduced amount of magical research in selected disciplines, under scientific principles, in order to provide a counter to magic-wielding empires. Or they could do research into how alchemy works. The main concern would be the soldiers' technologically advanced equipment falling into the hands of the enemy.

On alchemy, considering that items usable in alchemy have magical properties in morrowind and oblivion which you can take advantage of in alchemy, an advanced scientific civilization using advanced chemistry would probably be able to isolate what in those substances causes those effects, and instead of just creating potions as you do in those games, they could isolate the effect essences from an item with alchemy effects (such as glow dust), and create, for instance, reflect spell essence from glow dust (oblivion), cinnabore polypore yellow caps (oblivion), comberry (morrowind), and so on. It would probably only take one of those items rather than two, once they know what they're looking for, and once they have the essence, they could do all kinds of things with it... For instance, they might be able to use it the concentrated reflect spell essence (might have to create massive comberry farms to produce huge amounts of comberries to get huge amounts of the essence, though!) to create spell reflecting paint... and then paint their tanks, planes, full-body armor, and weapons with it. When they invade the provinces which remain after the fall of the Empire, and they attempt to fight off the attacking tanks with wizards (after discovering that nothing else they have really works), hilarity ensues.