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[3]

Why level it at all?

I think this is another case of laziness, if one can call it such.

Leveling loot obviously didn't solve the problem of woefully overpowered/expensive shit being trivially available to high level characters.

There's no reason why it shouldn't. There's nothing wrong with the theory behind the system. Bethesda were just incompetent with the implementation. It's not just an issue of "areas/quests should be tied to a set level range", either, as that just results in stuff like the Arena Grand Champion being as powerful as Mannimarco, who is in turn as strong as the head of the Blackwood Company (I say this as it's exactly what I'm experiencing in a heavily-modded Oblivion as I play it). I think a step in the right direction would be more balanced content distribution - game designers seem especially incompetent when it comes to low-level content. Not everything has to be of epic proportions (again, modders are even less reliable in the regard of worthwhile early content, so it's the one thing we can't rely on them to fix if it goes wrong).

On the difficulty slider: It just plays with the health/magicka/damage ratios of enemies. Nothing else. Hardly adequate for a game that's supposed to encompass varying playstyles.

[Sordid]

On the difficulty slider: It just plays with the health/magicka/damage ratios of enemies. Nothing else. Hardly adequate for a game that's supposed to encompass varying playstyles.

It's not even that. What it actually does is adjust these ratios for the player and for the player only. So when you mess with the slider, then you receive and deal an adjusted amount of damage, but if you happen to have any allies in the fight, their ratios are unaffected. So trying to for example keep Martin alive during the Bruma battle by fiddling with the slider is futile, as it has no effect whatsoever on NPC-vs-NPC combat.

[G-Flex]

I'm stupid. I meant "low level characters" in the above quote. Basically, you'd think raiding ridiculous loot from places would at least be nontrivial, but it isn't. This totally takes me out of the game, because I wind up thinking "why the hell isn't every other schmuck in the gameworld doing this if I can at level 2 even though I have no skills?".

You also just reminded me of how messed up the NPCs were in Morrowind. So many of them were bizarrely low-level; it just didn't make any damned sense. I've checked out the NPCs in the editor, and it's like the entire world is made up of people treated as if many of them are more powerful than the player, then you realize they peter off at mid-level.

How else is difficulty supposed to be inflated? The alternative to goblins having shit tons of health is goblins having not a lot of health and getting one-shotted, thus not being difficult. Well, or there being a whole crapload more of them at once, but MW was rough on top of the line computers when it came out, and adding swarms of enemies would have about the same effect as as fortress full of dwarves having running water added.

There are three possible solutions, none of which they seemed to consider:

• Don't assume that someone engaging in the expansion content has to be doing it after the main quest is already finished. After all, the early Tribunal quests would work fine for a character who's only mid-level, if the critters weren't so tough. There wouldn't be anything wrong with it story-wise either, since Tribunal (for instance) already has restrictions in place to prevent you getting to post-main-quest story content before its time.
• If you assume that the character has already done the main quest, don't make the new expansion quests revolve around tiny little annoying monsters that aren't appropriate for that level. Why goblins at all, in that case?
• Even if you assume the above, the expansion areas still can have weak enemies, just like Vvardenfell does. There's no reason why there can't be easy enemies in addition to the difficult ones on Solstheim, right?

[Duke 2.0]

 Tribunal only gave me trouble in that one quest with the magic landmines.

 Fuck those things.

[Aqizzar]

I'm stupid. I meant "low level characters" in the above quote. Basically, you'd think raiding ridiculous loot from places would at least be nontrivial, but it isn't. This totally takes me out of the game, because I wind up thinking "why the hell isn't every other schmuck in the gameworld doing this if I can at level 2 even though I have no skills?".

You also just reminded me of how messed up the NPCs were in Morrowind. So many of them were bizarrely low-level; it just didn't make any damned sense. I've checked out the NPCs in the editor, and it's like the entire world is made up of people treated as if many of them are more powerful than the player, then you realize they peter off at mid-level.

This was one of my biggest problems with Morrowind, the rather schizophrentic differences between challenges and rewards, and random and non-random enemies.  Sometimes bandits in the remotest mountains were pushovers.  Sometimes you'd take a brief walk out of town and stumble into Level 20 Daedra Worshipers.

The worst offense of weird rewards was in that Sleeper cave north of Gnaar Mok (or whatever it was called).  According to the plot-quests, you're not supposed to go there until you're well into the game.  I was just cruising the island at random on my first playthrough and stumbled into it.  Whether because the monster-type enemies are controlled by plot-triggers or are randomly-generated but controlled by a high-level placement, if you go there at less than Level 5 or so, the cave is just empty except for naked Sleepers.  And what's waiting at the back of the cave?  A pair of artifact gauntlets that give permanent +20 Strength and Agility.  Holy crap.

• Don't assume that someone engaging in the expansion content has to be doing it after the main quest is already finished. After all, the early Tribunal quests would work fine for a character who's only mid-level, if the critters weren't so tough. There wouldn't be anything wrong with it story-wise either, since Tribunal (for instance) already has restrictions in place to prevent you getting to post-main-quest story content before its time.

This is what I fucking hated about Tribunal, to the point of wanting to keep it deactivated.  The expansion is obviously intended for people who've already beaten the game.  But the sleep-assassin event has no trigger; the guy can show up the first time you sleep, and even though he scales is a stupidly hard fight.  Getting rid of him requires at least starting the Tribunal quest, and can still wig out without warning and curse you to sleep with one eye open until you get around to the whole thing, which you can't until you're solidly leveled.

That's pretty much my gripe with expansion packs for RPGs in general (and for that matter, most modders), that there is no such thing as a content pack for low level characters.

[3]

Arguably even worse than Illumbi is Mamaea, wherein you'll find yourself fighting a few Dreamers and end up with what is hands-down the best weapon in the game (there is an Ash Vampire in there, but amusingly, he's in a side room. Yeah, evidently whoever put that dungeon together didn't like the idea of the loot being guarded by, you know, a boss). At least that one's a little harder to find (even then it's about a hundred feet away from a mine related to a Telvanni quest and a Daedric ruin).

[Nivim]

This is what I fucking hated about Tribunal, to the point of wanting to keep it deactivated.  The expansion is obviously intended for people who've already beaten the game.  But the sleep-assassin event has no trigger; the guy can show up the first time you sleep, and even though he scales is a stupidly hard fight.  Getting rid of him requires at least starting the Tribunal quest, and can still wig out without warning and curse you to sleep with one eye open until you get around to the whole thing, which you can't until you're solidly leveled.

But of course...

[Africa]

There are three possible solutions, none of which they seemed to consider:

• Don't assume that someone engaging in the expansion content has to be doing it after the main quest is already finished. After all, the early Tribunal quests would work fine for a character who's only mid-level, if the critters weren't so tough. There wouldn't be anything wrong with it story-wise either, since Tribunal (for instance) already has restrictions in place to prevent you getting to post-main-quest story content before its time.
• If you assume that the character has already done the main quest, don't make the new expansion quests revolve around tiny little annoying monsters that aren't appropriate for that level. Why goblins at all, in that case?
• Even if you assume the above, the expansion areas still can have weak enemies, just like Vvardenfell does. There's no reason why there can't be easy enemies in addition to the difficult ones on Solstheim, right?

Huh? The whole entire point of the expansions is that they're a place for characters to move onto once they've become powerful enough that the main game is no longer a challenge. It's not really relevant whether you've finished the main quest or not, just whether you can hold your own with the new, powerful enemies.

As for the goblin thing, I can't really tell what you're complaining about - that goblins are strong? So goblins are tough in the TES universe, how's that a problem?

[G-Flex]

This was one of my biggest problems with Morrowind, the rather schizophrentic differences between challenges and rewards, and random and non-random enemies.  Sometimes bandits in the remotest mountains were pushovers.  Sometimes you'd take a brief walk out of town and stumble into Level 20 Daedra Worshipers.

Stuff like this honestly doesn't bother me as much, if only because, if you think about it in in-universe terms, it doesn't really make sense as a bumbling new adventure to run off into the wilderness entering random ruins and caves, and if you do then you sort of have to accept whatever you find. I mean, it makes perfect sense to encourage the player to get his character started doing things in a more controlled environment (the beginning quests, guilds, etc.) rather than stumbling out blindly into random bandit caves.

if you go there at less than Level 5 or so, the cave is just empty except for naked Sleepers.  And what's waiting at the back of the cave?  A pair of artifact gauntlets that give permanent +20 Strength and Agility.  Holy crap.

This, on the other hand? Completely freaking inexcusable. There are places in the game where you have stuff that seems to be worth entire towns lying around for the taking.

This is what I fucking hated about Tribunal, to the point of wanting to keep it deactivated.  The expansion is obviously intended for people who've already beaten the game.  But the sleep-assassin event has no trigger; the guy can show up the first time you sleep, and even though he scales is a stupidly hard fight.  Getting rid of him requires at least starting the Tribunal quest, and can still wig out without warning and curse you to sleep with one eye open until you get around to the whole thing, which you can't until you're solidly leveled.

Yes. The freaking assassin. I remember a few times fighting him outside Seyda Neen. Hearing "YOU N'WAH!" and getting stabbed to death by a guy wearing (for that point in the game) hideously expensive armor is a bitch.

There are mods that add simple controls to that, so it only occurs after some quest point. You know what I'd do, personally? Base it on the character's reputation stat. That way, they wouldn't attack you until people actually know who the hell you are and you might be slightly more prepared. Of course, if you do fight him off successfully (which you have to!), you get some really damn good light armor. Of course, don't even get me started on armor balance. You don't want me to go there.

[quote author=Africa link=topic=72838.msg1941052#msg1941052 date=1296660112Huh? The whole entire point of the expansions is that they're a place for characters to move onto once they've become powerful enough that the main game is no longer a challenge.[/quote]

I don't see why this has to be the case, and if it is, two of my points were directly intended for such a scenario.

As for the goblin thing, I can't really tell what you're complaining about - that goblins are strong? So goblins are tough in the TES universe, how's that a problem?

The problem is that they don't appear like they should be. Why should sewer pests and tiny little rieklings be so powerful? They aren't really treated as such story-wise, the shitty little wooden goblin swords have surprisingly great stats for what they are, and it's pretty obvious to me that the only reason they're so strong is to shoehorn in "balance" for more powerful characters.

[Duke 2.0]

 Was I the only guy who liked the assassin? He was tough but nothing a decently-prepared adventurer couldn't handle, and if you decided to take light armor it provides you with some very good armor 'till glass comes around. And free enchanted glass daggers. Although I played the X-Box version so take what you will.

 I'll accept that some loot should just sort of be lying around. It's a large world with many unexplored and not terribly well-traveled areas and dangerous locals. There is even an ebony mace somewhere west of Balmora just hiding near a rock. Little prizes for exploring the world. I don't think they necessarily require a boss, but there should be a challenge to it. Like in the mace example, only those who have a very keen vision would spot it being a brown object on brownish ground. Or the various daedric artifacts hiding in nooks in caves. Chances for exploration are good.
 Of course in examples like those caves with scaled enemies there would need to be some hard barrier for the player to encounter. Especially for plot caves.

 Basically, there are other factors than enemies. Of course making sure repeat players can't abuse them is difficult.

[3]

I don't think they necessarily require a boss

If this is referring to the comment I made, I didn't mean to imply that a boss was required; only that the boss in question was in the same area by plot necessity, and it didn't make any logical sense for him to be in a side room with nothing in it.

[Sergius]

Difficulty was horrible in the expansions too because it was all falsely inflated. Even the tinier dudes like goblins and rieklings (sp?) had insane amounts of HP even compared to some of the harder stuff on Vvardenfell. It was obviously designed for post-main-quest characters, yet even the parts that would reasonably be easy for them were made difficult by extremely artificial monster (and monster weapon) stat inflation. Seriously, goblin footsoldiers had as much HP as a storm atronach, and 1.25 times the HP of a dremora.

I remember in Tribunal, the goblin infested sewers who had ridiculous endurance and the BEST SHIELDS in the game ever. And two or three goblins would damage your shield anyway to zero... it was so silly I stopped using any custom shield I had and just picked them up from the downed goblins, used them until they broke and then disposed of them. Eventually I leveled enough that they posed little threat (but if you got one of them behind you while fighting another couple you were probably dead regardless) yet the shield issue never went away.

For some reason I enjoyed the disposable shield mechanic tho.

[Duke 2.0]

 I suppose I am biting off a bit more than I can chew with this argument made over a misunderstanding, but I'll plow forward to try and fake some dignity here. Obviously combat and enemies play a large role in these games, and making them work right makes or breaks this particular genre of games, but if they add all the other skills like climbing and stuff many elements for limiting player advancement into areas they should not be in will help make combat balance easier. Having an unclimbable rock face that players can only manage to climb up at some later point means they don't have to scale loot and enemies on the other side. And if you invested in being able to climb well early on you could take the risk of facing very difficult foes to get massive rewards.

 If they dumb down combat skills but make the other skills more meaningful for player obstacles then the level scaling issue will be easier to deal with.

[3]

But the overall design of the game will be far harder to deal with. As I said earlier, I don't see anything wrong with level scaling as a system, and it'd be perfectly viable if somebody actually took the time to work the entire thing out and balance it properly - something that's entirely possible in the Oblivion CS. Sidestepping the issue by placing the emphasis on other skills won't address level scaling (that'll stay just as broken as it is, but potentially less important) and'll make everything else more complicated in the process.

For example, how do you deal with the issue of player skill? Modern CRPGs are very much more about player execution than character development when compared to their ancestors. What if I want to go and check out this difficult area while I'm weak, simply because I'm good enough at the game to survive there anyway? Does this mean I have to level my climbing skill (or just become stronger, etc.)? What if I don't want to do that? It'd essentally be the same thing as removing every levitation potion/item from Morrowind - there are instances where one cannot advance the plot without some kind of levitation, so the only solution is to build up my Alteration. I don't have a choice. And coming up with linear approaches to things is the last thing TES games should be focussed on.

The way I see it is that as the series is taking a less and less "traditonal", stat-oriented approach, the focus should lie on making the skill-based elements more interesting. Shield spells give you a statistical damage resistance? Get rid of them, come up with something better. Elemental spells essentially identikit with no applications other than direct damage? Get them to do something else as well. Introduce an element of risk or something. It's not hard. You're supposed to be game designers, for God's sake, so why, when making an action-oriented game, do you seem so incapable of making use of exciting game mechanics?

/rant

[G-Flex]

But the overall design of the game will be far harder to deal with. As I said earlier, I don't see anything wrong with level scaling as a system, and it'd be perfectly viable if somebody actually took the time to work the entire thing out and balance it properly - something that's entirely possible in the Oblivion CS.

If the game has decent monster AI and you're taking that much effort to properly balance and design the game in the first place, then leveled systems are not necessary to begin with.

For example, how do you deal with the issue of player skill? Modern CRPGs are very much more about player execution than character development when compared to their ancestors. What if I want to go and check out this difficult area while I'm weak, simply because I'm good enough at the game to survive there anyway? Does this mean I have to level my climbing skill (or just become stronger, etc.)?

I honestly don't agree with that trend in development. In my opinion, if your character's skills/attributes as such that it would be very difficult for him to accomplish something, then it should be very difficult to the player as well, even if the player is very skilled at the game. Of course, you can never perfectly accomplish that, but that's the sort of design goal I'd have, which is contrary to modern trends.

Elemental spells essentially identikit with no applications other than direct damage? Get them to do something else as well.

To be fair, apparently different elements will have different secondary effects. The Wikipedia article has more on this. I'm not sure where I'd go with it personally, because on one hand, all elements being the same is pretty silly, but on the other hand, I don't like silly too-gamey solutions to that problem. Some of the effects in Skyrim, like fire actually setting fire to things, are natural enough that they're fine by me.