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Dwarf Power (hand craking), Animal Power at the engine.

0 (0%)

Dorf/animal power at station, routed through axles/etc.

4 (21.1%)

Dorf/animal/coal at the engine

2 (10.5%)

Dorf/animal/coal, routed through axles/etc.

3 (15.8%)

Dorf/animal/basic inefficient steam at the engine

3 (15.8%)

Dorf/animal/basic inefficient steam, routed through axles/etc.

3 (15.8%)

Other (say in thread)

0 (0%)

I like to vote random options

4 (21.1%)

Total Members Voted: 19

[kilakan]

honestly toady is well... to damn picky about these things, I mean a basic 'boat' type vehicle should be able to be built along with carts, then if modders or players with they should be able to add in things that require different types of power, such as steam, and different vehicles.  For instance there's been plenty of futuristic mods, and present day type mods, or conversion to another fantasy world mods that would benefit greatly from a power generating type movable building, that can be damaged and changed freely.

[Rowanas]

Oh, he'll put it in, I have no doubt, but it's just not on his list of priorities.

[FallingWhale]

The aeolipile wasn't a steam engine, so to speak, it was a rocket jet type engine that used steam. You couldn't possibly use it to push a vehicle with a passenger, you can't attach anything sizable to it without disabling it.

[Dakk]

If toady gives us some freeform vehicle building, I can already see people using eternal motion devices composed of a water well and some pumps as engines for huge tank like things, which I would totally do.

[Rowanas]

If I can't build gigantic super-carriers that can grow trees below-decks and itself works as a boat factory, while having several magma cannon that can function as weapons and also form obsidian piers for connection to land, I will be MOST DISPLEASED

[TolyK]

yeah. well, about this:

The aeolipile wasn't a steam engine, so to speak, it was a rocket jet type engine that used steam. You couldn't possibly use it to push a vehicle with a passenger, you can't attach anything sizable to it without disabling it.

yes. it was a ball the size of a tennis ball (up to a soccer ball). and they also couldn't get very accurate diameters/etc. in metalworking.

this would take up a WHOLE URIST-TILE (that even elephants fit in) and, due to dwarven excellence in metalworking they will have greater efficiency than the (original) aeolipile. the rotation can be connected to other things.
plus a literal ton of coal - geez THINK HOW MUCH ENERGY YOU GET BURNING THAT! or using magma (think magma sub)

about this:

honestly toady is well... to damn picky about these things, I mean a basic 'boat' type vehicle should be able to be built along with carts, then if modders or players with they should be able to add in things that require different types of power, such as steam, and different vehicles.  For instance there's been plenty of futuristic mods, and present day type mods, or conversion to another fantasy world mods that would benefit greatly from a power generating type movable building, that can be damaged and changed freely.

well that's why I want an "engine" object type, at least for hand-cranked and animal-pulled stuff. modder's dream!

well I kinda hope the good man will come and look at this thread  please.

[Rowanas]

well I kinda hope the good man will come and look at this thread  please.

The Good Toad sees all.

[Andeerz]

For the record, I think the lack of use of steam power during ancient times was not simply a work-precision or resource issue in the sense of coal availability or whatnot.  I think it's likely more complicated than that... but that's besides the point.  Steam engines probably should remain in the realm of modding.

But, yeah, I love how this thread is coming along!  I am personally a fan of the designation system in that thread me and Rowanas mentioned for larger crap, and I do like the idea of smaller pre-built sort of vehicles made in a workshop.  And I do like Walparius' suggestion as well... a mix of the designation system and that would be tits.  As for the drydock thing Walparius suggested... it wouldn't need to be complicated at all!  Check out the thread I linked at the beginning of the thread.  Such a building technique as using a drydock and stuff could come about as a natural response to having the designation system proposed in that thread.  I think it could work beautifully!

The biggest problem I have seen no good solution for is turning of vehicles... and this is something Toady complained about as well.  This tile system is quite bad for shit like that... unless there's a non-tile system under everything and the tile system is simply a superficial sort of representation sort of thing.

Also:

It's closer to chariot speed than car speed, which is to say that each horse attached to a chariot has a maximum speed. The only thing you gain by attaching more horses is a spreading of the load, so that each horse can achieve its maximum speed. In the same way, a ten megatonne boat will require 100,000 engines to get it chugging along at top speed, while a one-dwarf exploratory dinghy will need just the one.

Oregon Trail comes to mind as an example of a failure to realize this... 60 oxen and you can bolt across the continent in no time.  XD  Oh, Oregon Trail... how I miss thee. 

[Caldfir]

I've had my own idea about the main issue with boats specifically which I haven't seen resolved here or elsewhere yet, but forgive me if someone else came up with this solution:

How could DF detect that something is a boat/buoyant if it is constructed dynamically of walls etc.?

My solution builds on a notion the game must already implement: natural connectedness.  Basically, right now there exists some algorithm (albeit probably not a particularly efficient one) which, whenever a tile with a wall/construction changes, checks adjacent tiles to check to see if they are adjacent to a tile that has support.  This type of checking has to go out until it reaches a tile on the edge of the map.  Edge tiles are marked as "naturally connected" (I'm not Toady, so I'm not 100% on this, but this is the natural way to implement cave-ins as they currently exist). 

This could be extended to have a third kind of tile - a "weakly connected" one.  Normally a tile flagged as weakly connected does nothing, however if it gets flagged as NOT connected to a "naturally connected" then it tabulates all the tiles that it is connected to, detects water below it, and does whatever calculations are necessary.  Subsequently (to prevent repeated recalculation on every frame) another flag could be set on the rest of the structure's tiles to ensure that they don't collapse like normal constructions. 

How such a tile could be designated is a question of algorithmic choice - it could need to be set by the player, or possibly be flagged as the first tile that does the check for its own connectedness. 

In any case, the problem of how to make the thing move isn't answered, and  might end up being complicated (even though I seem to remember Toady saying something about possibly reusing some old code from adventure mode for shifting tiles and their information...). 

[Andeerz]

Yep!  A similar thing was suggested before!    Check out the thread linked in the second post of this thread.

[Rowanas]

...a mix of the designation system and that would be tits....

The meaning is obvious, but that's a very odd turn of phrase. I have to use it more often.

It's closer to chariot speed than car speed, which is to say that each horse attached to a chariot has a maximum speed. The only thing you gain by attaching more horses is a spreading of the load, so that each horse can achieve its maximum speed. In the same way, a ten megatonne boat will require 100,000 engines to get it chugging along at top speed, while a one-dwarf exploratory dinghy will need just the one.

Oregon Trail comes to mind as an example of a failure to realize this... 60 oxen and you can bolt across the continent in no time.  XD  Oh, Oregon Trail... how I miss thee. 

Oxen naturally run about the Midwest of America at speeds surpassing mach 3. Oregon trail didn't fail, it researched.

[FallingWhale]

yeah. well, about this:

The aeolipile wasn't a steam engine, so to speak, it was a rocket jet type engine that used steam. You couldn't possibly use it to push a vehicle with a passenger, you can't attach anything sizable to it without disabling it.

yes. it was a ball the size of a tennis ball (up to a soccer ball). and they also couldn't get very accurate diameters/etc. in metalworking.

this would take up a WHOLE URIST-TILE (that even elephants fit in) and, due to dwarven excellence in metalworking they will have greater efficiency than the (original) aeolipile. the rotation can be connected to other things.
plus a literal ton of coal - geez THINK HOW MUCH ENERGY YOU GET BURNING THAT! or using magma (think magma sub)

Efficiency isn't the issue; If you add an axle the toy losses half its steam and becomes unbalanced.

[TolyK]

well I know. just something to keep in mind.

For the record, I think the lack of use of steam power during ancient times was not simply a work-precision or resource issue in the sense of coal availability or whatnot.  I think it's likely more complicated than that... but that's besides the point.  Steam engines probably should remain in the realm of modding.
Which would be available through the "engines" thing

But, yeah, I love how this thread is coming along!  I am personally a fan of the designation system in that thread me and Rowanas and me I think mentioned for larger crap, and I do like the idea of smaller pre-built sort of vehicles made in a workshop. one-tile ones only, though And I do like Walparius' suggestion as well... a mix of the designation system and that would be tits.uh.. .  As for the drydock thing Walparius suggested... it wouldn't need to be complicated at all!  Check out the thread I linked at the beginning of the thread.  Such a building technique as using a drydock and stuff could come about as a natural response to having the designation system proposed in that thread. Or we could just systematically build locks. see below*  I think it could work beautifully!
Yes

The biggest problem I have seen no good solution for is turning of vehicles... and this is something Toady complained about as well.  This tile system is quite bad for shit like that... unless there's a non-tile system under everything and the tile system is simply a superficial sort of representation sort of thing.

see OP for how things would turn without things falling. for 90 degree turns it's easy. for 45 (if implemented) you would make invisible "walls" and just shift tiles, like this:

Code: [Select]

ABCD
EFGH
becomes

Code: [Select]

#A#
D#B#
#E#C#
 #F#

Also:

It's closer to chariot speed than car speed, which is to say that each horse attached to a chariot has a maximum speed. The only thing you gain by attaching more horses is a spreading of the load, so that each horse can achieve its maximum speed. In the same way, a ten megatonne boat will require 100,000 engines to get it chugging along at top speed, while a one-dwarf exploratory dinghy will need just the one.

Oregon Trail comes to mind as an example of a failure to realize this... 60 oxen and you can bolt across the continent in no time.  XD  Oh, Oregon Trail... how I miss thee. 

*the thing I see bad here is that, well, it would be hard to dock into an ocean (especially with a cliff) because it's hard to dig into a multi-level wall EVERYWHERE unless the ocean freezes. it's also currently impossible to make a multi-level floodgate thing...

picture this:

Code: [Select]

BOAT~~~_~~~
BOAT~~~_~~~
BOAT~~~_~~~
BOAT~~~_~~~
and the boat's not going through...

[Waparius]

Somebody has suggested a caisson building as a way around that - basically a construction that can be lowered into the water and pumped out to allow dorfs to build things down there. Not sure where the original thread is, but it would give cranes even more value, I think, and fits in with Toady's "moving fortress sections" plan.

That sort of thing would also allow giant sea-gates to be closed at the mouth of the harbour, which I am also in favour of.

[adwarf]

Just leave buoancy out for now because buoancy weight and all this other stuff the computer has to calculate will do some major slowdown on the game we shouldnt worry about them yet just the vehicles