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Dwarf Power (hand craking), Animal Power at the engine.

0 (0%)

Dorf/animal power at station, routed through axles/etc.

4 (21.1%)

Dorf/animal/coal at the engine

2 (10.5%)

Dorf/animal/coal, routed through axles/etc.

3 (15.8%)

Dorf/animal/basic inefficient steam at the engine

3 (15.8%)

Dorf/animal/basic inefficient steam, routed through axles/etc.

3 (15.8%)

Other (say in thread)

0 (0%)

I like to vote random options

4 (21.1%)

Total Members Voted: 19

[TolyK]

(I copied from another megathread, I suck at BBcode formatting...)
(I'll try to keep this updated.)

This is an attempt to record all vehicle suggestions from all over the forum in one place. It is a brainstorming thread about all vehicle related items, features and events. Please feel free to contribute your ideas, point out flaws, or provide useful images, links or source materials.

This is not a discussion about game mechanics, balance issues, bugs or anything else not related to vehicles.
I will try to fit as many of the ideas together into a workable whole as possible, but some of these ideas might conflict with one another.
UNDER NO CONDITION is this thread meant to be the end all, be all absolute PROPER place to post a vehicle related suggestion. DO NOT berate others for not posting here. Instead invite them here, or link their suggestion into this thread.

*********************

Uses
The uses of vehicles

• Wagons - Wagons for caravans and possibly "migrant trains"
  
• Movable siege engines/wall breachers - goblins too easy? a wall and that's it? What if they built siege engines, battering rams, and machines that could cross over walls? well, you could build them too... (think army arc to)
  
• Boats - Transversing the ocean! A floating fort! An undermagma submarine! And others.
  
• Mining carts/transport cars - stockpiling can become more easy if vehicles can be designated with "start" and "stop" places (only ones on rails) and they could be set to load stuff [i.e. stones] at start and unload them at stop, making semi-automatized stockpiling systems.
  
• ... -
  

*****

Movement
Discussing movement behavior. Ideas:

• POWER:Pulled by animals - wagons, early-game goblin wall breachers/siege engines.
  
• POWER:Engines - Dwarf power, inefficient coal/steam power to build self-propelling vehicles.
  
• POWER:Power transfer (carts) - generate power to move stuff around.
  
• TYPE:Rails - railroad-like. power transmitted through rails.
  
• TYPE:Wheels - powered by dwarf or heat/steam. or mobile reactore
  
• TYPE:Marine Screws - small, take lots of energy. sealed (unpassable)
  
• TYPE:Paddlewheels - large, uses little energy, passable (oh the floods and carp!)
  
• TYPE:Oars - on rafts
  
• TYPE:Sails - (tricky) uses wind
  
• Movement interface - "go to" commands (unrealistic); individual engine/wheel control (micromanagement); start, stop, and other "destination" points (rails)
  
• Movement styles - 90 degree turns; 45 degree turns using my add-on method (*link*)
  

*****

Construction
Possibilities

• Tile-by-tile (i.e. similar to constructions) - Build special floors (in a workshop) and construct them onto a surface. Floors when built connect to nearby ones and become part of the vehicle container.
  
• In a workshop (smaller, pre-build ones) - Build carts, wagons(?), floors, parts and more.
  
• In a "designer" - (breaks immersion) Use a designer to manage constructions.
  
• Use terrain tiles - (very tricky) Make terrain float on water/mag
  

*****

Requirements
Changes for listed stuff required in order for this stuff to work.

• Free-look map - if we build vehicles and want to explore beyond. Also good for army arc.
  
• New workshops, jobs, etc. - vehiclemaker('s workshop), ...
  
• Physics change (boats) - allow displacement and water/magma physics.
  
• Pathfinding - unless special engines are used (micromanagement) pathfinding will become much... longer.
  
• Collection/container meltality - vehicles and on-board items need to be in a "pliable" (dynamic) vehicle container/collection that gets recalculated when something happens
  

Explanations you might want:

Spoiler: links (click to show/hide)

Building vehicles: http://www.mediafire.com/?gymx9ndv47v67fy
"Engines": http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=463let5c83h18yo&thumb=4
The .xls file: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?i1od2cuyzjg291q
The .xlsx file: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?xr1ap75e4zuw78d

[Andeerz]

In this thread are me and some other people's contributions as to how to perhaps get a designation system to work for vehicles or arbitrary shape and other constructs that can be moved.

[Fniff]

This would be PERFECT for modding!

I mean, I always wanted a tank...

Urist Mcnoble cancels Being A Noble: Interrupted By Tank.

[harborpirate]

great to see a megathread for this, there have been lots of suggestion threads on this topic recently.

[Twi]

Me, I just want to live in a yellow submarine.
Just five (or seven) dwarves, and one crazy sub. Complete with a boxing button, magma lighter (somehow), panic button, periscope, the whole works.
As for actual ideas...
I would want to build the object from some 'vehicle design' screen that's superimposed on the map. That way, you can see what you're building on top of and build it to fit, and it'll still be open-ended.
I'd also like to be able to modify things after the vehicle is created.

[Hydrall]

Perhaps the structures could be called a "Wagon Assembly" and "Drydock"?

Get complicated to make, though... Might be complicated to make, though, since a Drydock might need to be flooded after construction... Which also brings up what would happen if they went over a waterfall, and would magma boats be possible?

I suspect they'll all be 3x3 'wagons' in form, but maybe modding could change things...

[TolyK]

In this thread are me and some other people's contributions as to how to perhaps get a designation system to work for vehicles or arbitrary shape and other constructs that can be moved.

I actually got some of the ideas above from that thread, but thanks for the link. I'll site it as a "source" at the bottom of the OP.

The exact post you linked to is fairly close to what I think. In this case, you would just find the weight of all the objects on board and divide it by the volume of displaced water to get density. If it's less than 1.0 (in-game 1000) then it floats. if not, it moves down 1 z-level and recalculates it. Hitting the bottom damages the tiles to "x Wooden Floor x" etc. Submarines would be made using pumps and chambers that raise the density and make it fall.

About "designations"...
You build floors that you construct in a "vehicle-maker's workshop", and every time you construct something it recalculates the density/buoyancy of the vehicle. Wait, what is the vehicle? It's the collection/array of vehicle tiles, which in turn are objects that contain themselves and the stuff on them. Which is how you calculate the object.

Me, I just want to live in a yellow submarine.
Just five (or seven) dwarves, and one crazy sub. Complete with a boxing button, magma lighter (somehow), panic button, periscope, the whole works.
As for actual ideas...
I would want to build the object from some 'vehicle design' screen that's superimposed on the map. That way, you can see what you're building on top of and build it to fit, and it'll still be open-ended.
I'd also like to be able to modify things after the vehicle is created.

yeah I imagined people would try and do that. very versatile thing!
well, here you would actually build the tile on the ground/another tile and the game would automatically connect the parts together.

Perhaps the structures could be called a "Wagon Assembly" and "Drydock"?

Get complicated to make, though... Might be complicated to make, though, since a Drydock might need to be flooded after construction... Which also brings up what would happen if they went over a waterfall, and would magma boats be possible?

I suspect they'll all be 3x3 'wagons' in form, but maybe modding could change things...

well, you would actually make them yourself!

[Twi]

You know, rails would not be a viable source of power without electricity....
Derp.
I still hold out for a 'blueprint' that can be superimposed over the terrain while you make it, or not.

[kilakan]

there's also the chain type rail, which the cart has a hook underneath and the track has a constantly moving chain on it, that way to can power tracks with mechanical powers.  aka waterwheels and windmills.

[Twi]

there's also the chain type rail, which the cart has a hook underneath and the track has a constantly moving chain on it, that way to can power tracks with mechanical powers.  aka waterwheels and windmills.

True.
But rails in and of themselves do not provide power....
>_>

[Waparius]

-Firstly, to make vehicles effective, hauling needs to be overhauled. Large/Heavy objects should tire dwarves out, especially when being carried up and down stairs.
--Vehicles/animals have low, medium, high and maximum carrying capacity, the last reserved for larger vehicles like wagons. All have higher capacity than dwarves. (low capacity allows a single dwarf to be carried in addition to the operator)

-Animals should be trainable as pack animals. They have light carrying capacity, but aren't fatigued by goods. They should however require training, a pack-saddle and somebody to lead them. Food may also be needed. Pack animals can be harnessed to certain vehicles, and also to winches providing power to machinery.

- Dwarf/Animal/Mill-Powered elevators and cranes should be almost required to haul heavy goods long distances vertically. If poorly constructed, they should wear out and have a chance of breaking, for extra FUN value.

WHEELED VEHICLES

- Wheeled vehicles drastically lower fatigue (when dwarf-powered) over roads and smoothed terrain, but cannot climb stairs.

- Small Vehicles are constructed from wood at the Cartmaker's Workshop, a 5x5 building, or from metal and adamantine where appropriate at the Forge. Large vehicles such as wagons are built from parts constructed at the Cartmaker's. Weight is included in fatigue-reduction calculations so it's better to build your wheelbarrows out of Feather-tree than lead.
-- Wheelbarrows: Dwarf-powered; low-capacity - good for hauling bins and short-haul mining and construction
-- Carts: Require a pack-animal; Cannot be made from metal; medium-capacity; chews up vegetation when not on a road - good for large-scale logging and constructions.
-- Mine-Carts: Dwarf or Animal-powered; High-Capacity; require tracks (can be built into elevators) - good for large-scale mining and hauling tasks. May allow a complex power system.

- Wagons are built from parts at the Cartmaker's and assembled on-site. They have maximum carrying capacity, but require two pack animals and are extra-large. Useful for doing things outside of the fortress and selling to caravans.

BOATS

Boats would be useful in fortress mode now that we have cavernous lakes.


Canals, barges and locks should definitely be included. Canals were historically a very, very effective way of moving large amounts of heavy stuff around. A barge, a rope, an animal and a channel with floor space next to it makes for an excellent way of moving things around one level. Forts could also construct water-based elevators to lift bargeloads of heavy goods long distances, with the suitable FUN risks.

- Constructed at the 5x5 Boatbuilder's Workshop, boats can only be made from wood and adamantine, and must be launched from a ramp or jetty. Being launched from a natural ramp will increase wear on the boat, eventually rendering it useless. Boats are operated with the "Boating" labour and skill, but do not fatigue dwarves.
-- Rowboats: Dwarf-powered; low capacity; move freely across water.
-- Barges: Animal-powered; high capacity; moves along designated canals and must be next to the shore.
-- Ferries: Dwarf, animal or Machine-Powered; Maximum capacity; Moves along a single route between two buildings, which are linked by lengths of rope or chain.

SHIPS

-Adventurers should have a risk of being press-ganged in port cities at night, along with the ability to lead a mutiny, be marooned on an island, etc. Adventurers should also be able to captain or crew a ship.
--Crewing a ship may not be interesting enough, and if included should probably be mostly abstracted, with the captain providing tasks at intervals - fighting a boarding action on an enemy ship, foraging for food, trading in the town?  Captaining a ship should definitely be an option however.
--Ships should require regular maintenance, including scraping for barnacles (leading to keel-hauling or time in a drydock).

-Given the trade goods on offer at least as far as 40d, humans seem to be the most nautical race in the DF world. As such most trade-ships should be from human civilisations - though player forts at the very least should be able to buck the trend and build dwarven ships. Elves and merfolk could possibly trade using whales and other sea-life as pack animals.


-Beach forts should be able to construct docks for trading ships; ships should carry large amounts of cargo, but perhaps let sailors out for shore leave and press-gang random citizens just before departure.

-River forts should be able to construct piers for trading barges, if there is another settlement along the river.

- Ship construction in Fortress Mode should be a large enterprise with large potential rewards.

[TolyK]

there's also the chain type rail, which the cart has a hook underneath and the track has a constantly moving chain on it, that way to can power tracks with mechanical powers.  aka waterwheels and windmills.

True.
But rails in and of themselves do not provide power....
>_>

well ok then, you need 1 bar every 3 tracks of rail and 1 rope and mechanism every 6. and at the ends are "buffers" where you can connect power.
replies to next post in bold

-Firstly, to make vehicles effective, hauling needs to be overhauled. Large/Heavy objects should tire dwarves out, especially when being carried up and down stairs. not quite the topic but I agree
--Vehicles/animals have low, medium, high and maximum carrying capacity, the last reserved for larger vehicles like wagons. All have higher capacity than dwarves. (low capacity allows a single dwarf to be carried in addition to the operator) values might change but agreed

-Animals should be trainable as pack animals. They have light carrying capacity, but aren't fatigued by goods. They should however require training, a pack-saddle and somebody to lead them. Food may also be needed. Pack animals can be harnessed to certain vehicles, and also to winches providing power to machinery. and mounted by your dwarves too, like the dudes in sieges

- Dwarf/Animal/Mill-Powered elevators and cranes should be almost required to haul heavy goods long distances vertically. If poorly constructed, they should wear out and have a chance of breaking, for extra FUN value. depending on quality of mechanisms. or, worse mechanisms get slower speeds

WHEELED VEHICLES

- Wheeled vehicles drastically lower fatigue (when dwarf-powered) over roads and smoothed terrain, but cannot climb stairs. vehicles should not be treated as creatures as wagons in the raws (look at creature_equipment.txt I think...) but as moving platforms. they should have no fatigue

- Small Vehicles are constructed from wood at the Cartmaker'sVehicle maker's Workshop, a 5x5 building, or from metal and adamantine where appropriate at the Forge. Large vehicles such as wagons are built from parts constructed at the Cartmaker's Vehicle maker's. Weight is included in fatigue-reduction calculations so it's better to build your wheelbarrows out of Feather-tree than lead.
-- Wheelbarrows: Dwarf-powered; low-capacity - good for hauling bins and short-haul mining and construction
-- Carts: Require a pack-animal; Cannot be made from metal; medium-capacity; chews up vegetation when not on a road - good for large-scale logging and constructions. metal is useful...
-- Mine-Carts: Dwarf or Animal-powered; High-Capacity; require tracks (can be built into elevators) - good for large-scale mining and hauling tasks. May allow a complex power system. using pulley-rails

- Wagons are built from parts at the Cartmaker's vehicle maker's and assembled on-site. They have maximum carrying capacity, but require two pack animals and are extra-large. Useful for doing things outside of the fortress and selling to caravans. I disagree if we're to have them dynamic. You do build vehicle "parts" (specifically floors, walls, stairs, ramps, and other stuff such as wheels) and [ b ] build them into place, where they auto-connect to nearby tiles.

BOATS

Boats would be useful in fortress mode now that we have cavernous lakes. and oceans, this means oversea travel and trade is possible without swimming across the ocean

Canals, barges and locks should definitely be included. Canals were historically a very, very effective way of moving large amounts of heavy stuff around. A barge, a rope, an animal and a channel with floor space next to it makes for an excellent way of moving things around one level. Forts could also construct water-based elevators to lift bargeloads of heavy goods long distances, with the suitable FUN risks. yes, but civs take a LONG time to make them (historically). i hope this fits in the time-frame, please check someone

- Constructed at the 5x5 Boatbuilder's Vehicle maker's Workshop, boats can only be made from wood and adamantine, and must be launched from a ramp or jetty. Being launched from a natural ramp will increase wear on the boat, eventually rendering it useless. Boats are operated with the "Boating" labour and skill, but do not fatigue dwarves.
-- Rowboats: Dwarf-powered; low capacity; move freely across water. no, using oar "engines" is better IMO
-- Barges: Animal-powered; high capacity; moves along designated canals and must be next to the shore. nope, using an animal-powered "engine"
-- Ferries: Dwarf, animal or Machine-Powered; Maximum capacity; Moves along a single route between two buildings, which are linked by lengths of rope or chain.  moved by chains linked to "engines" on-shore

SHIPS

-Adventurers should have a risk of being press-ganged in port cities at night, along with the ability to lead a mutiny, be marooned on an island, etc. Adventurers should also be able to captain or crew a ship.
--Crewing a ship may not be interesting enough, and if included should probably be mostly abstracted, with the captain providing tasks at intervals - fighting a boarding action on an enemy ship, foraging for food, trading in the town?  Captaining a ship should definitely be an option however.
--Ships should require regular maintenance, including scraping for barnacles (leading to keel-hauling or time in a drydock).

YES!

-Given the trade goods on offer at least as far as 40d, humans seem to be the most nautical race in the DF world. As such most trade-ships should be from human civilisations - though player forts at the very least should be able to buck the trend and build dwarven ships. Elves and merfolk could possibly trade using whales and other sea-life as pack animals.

agreed

-Beach forts should be able to construct docks for trading ships; ships should carry large amounts of cargo, but perhaps let sailors out for shore leave and press-gang random citizens just before departure.

nonono, ANY forts can build vehicles, including boats/ships, but what use for it have they? Answer in spoiler:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

magma sub

[/b]

-River forts should be able to construct piers for trading barges, if there is another settlement along the river.

yes, and off the river too. only for "small rivers" and larger

- Ship construction in Fortress Mode should be a large enterprise with large potential rewards.

trading, conquering the world, etc. yep

I think people don't understand my idea of building vehicles and "engines"
I'll make some sort of diagram...

[Lungfish]

Vehicles? Awesome. I miss the FUN of having to ensure a 3x3 path for merchants, but I was also always indignant that I couldn't cart my original wagon to some Dwarven museum. And it would be cool to have a little "oregon trail" action with DF; what if you had to travel from the Mountainhome to a place that finally looks good enough rather than just picking it from the map... but that's a segway into a kind of DF and AdventureMode fusion.
Assuming they would be faster than your average dwarf, carts on rails would be outrageously helpful in large caves, and it would be awesome if you could designate public-transit-wait zones. Carts carried by (specially trained?) beasts of burden could be especially useful if dwarves could load all claimable goods onto a cart instead of having to each individually trek through my trap maze when I need to quickly stash a forest that I cut down with a bunch of legendary wood cutters.

ELEVATORS would be useful. That's pretty simple technology - the pully system isn't any crazier than a water wheel - and I have some deep and tall fortresses that would appreciate bridging the gap from the furnaces to the shops.

And I want to be able to ride specially trained mounted beasts. Damn it, if the goblins can ride a tamed giant bat, I should be able to as well.

As far as vehicles powered by anything other than gravity, dwarves or animals, I say that might be beyond the tech level of the game

[Dagoth Urist]

Posting in an epic thread, watching this, etcetera...

Me myself, I think that commandeering a ship would be awesome! If anyone's played Sid Meier's Pirates! you know what I roughly expect. I particularly like the idea of towns and fortresses that will acknowledge the sea, building ports and boatyards. To what degree a civ is nautical could, and should, be variable. One may have a large sea empire while another is landlocked. Just the existence of boats and ships opens up a brave new world of possibilities. An undersea civ, mayhap?

But I digress. Always. Ships and all their consequences should be fun! We do have steam... If I fashion a ship with two hundred steam-powered engines on my ship, how fast could it possibly go? xD What would the maximum size of a ship be, for that matter?

[TolyK]

Vehicles? Awesome. I miss the FUN of having to ensure a 3x3 path for merchants, but I was also always indignant that I couldn't cart my original wagon to some Dwarven museum. And it would be cool to have a little "oregon trail" action with DF; what if you had to travel from the Mountainhome to a place that finally looks good enough rather than just picking it from the map... but that's a segway into a kind of DF and Adventure Mode fusion.
Assuming they would be faster than your average dwarf, carts on rails would be outrageously helpful in large caves, and it would be awesome if you could designate public-transit-wait zones. Carts carried by (specially trained?) beasts of burden could be especially useful if dwarves could load all claimable goods onto a cart instead of having to each individually trek through my trap maze when I need to quickly stash a forest that I cut down with a bunch of legendary wood cutters.

ELEVATORS would be useful. That's pretty simple technology - the pully system isn't any crazier than a water wheel - and I have some deep and tall fortresses that would appreciate bridging the gap from the furnaces to the shops.

And I want to be able to ride specially trained mounted beasts. Damn it, if the goblins can ride a tamed giant bat, I should be able to as well.

As far as vehicles powered by anything other than gravity, dwarves or animals, I say that might be beyond the tech level of the game

so, a supporter. whaddaya think about boats?

Posting in an epic thread, watching this, etcetera...

thanks!

Me myself, I think that commandeering a ship would be awesome! If anyone's played Sid Meier's Pirates! you know what I roughly expect. I particularly like the idea of towns and fortresses that will acknowledge the sea, building ports and boatyards. To what degree a civ is nautical could, and should, be variable. One may have a large sea empire while another is landlocked. Just the existence of boats and ships opens up a brave new world of possibilities. An undersea civ, mayhap?

But I digress. Always. Ships and all their consequences should be fun! We do have steam... If I fashion a ship with two hundred steam-powered engines on my ship, how fast could it possibly go? xD What would the maximum size of a ship be, for that matter?

You bring up many good things up. Well, I'm currently making my "vehicle-building explanation" and will later do "engines" (both usual and other things)

I'll add this at the top of the OP when I update: PLEASE NOTE THAT GROUND AND BOATS ARE COLLECTIVELY CALLED "VEHICLES" AND TECHNICALLY IT IS POSSIBLE TO MAKE AMPHIBIOUS VEHICLES.
So boats and ground vehicles take the same skills as it's basically the same stuff. plus, you want your tank to be as water-proof and goblin-proof as your submarine, right? 

well, velocity and viscosity/resistance calculations would be required to figure out speed. technically, IF we are given the option of "Free-look" in fort mode (i.e. an expanding map) you could make a floating fortress that supplied itself. steam currently doesn't do anything other than scalding stuff, and toady is kind-of against stuff not in the game's time period... but maybe. The size of the ship would theoretically be dependent on buoyancy (look at Andreez's post near the beginning of the thread) and the size of the ocean.