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[thijser]

All deamons have [trap_avoid] but a repeater+uprights spears ignores trap avoid (the reason it works on thiefs aswell). this means that if you make a long hallway and fill it with upright spear traps you can basically defeat hell.

[rephikul]

Plenty of people wouldn't be satisfied with hell being anything less than impossible...

Yes, but I suspect the majority of that crowd are hardcore gamers and those who've had a lot of experience playing DF.

And why is that a bad thing? There should always be something to please the best of players. HFS is like a luxurious toy only people with great wealth of knowledge can afford. Everyone else can freely behold its sight behind the display case made of DFReveal. This is not wow.

[orbcontrolled]

(Holy crap I wrote a lot, sorry about that. Feel free to skip this post and pretend I just said "Let us agree to disagree, friend".)

Or if you're bored enough...

...snip...

Valid points. At the time I had been having some fun reading through the old wiki articles for earlier versions of the game, so I came into the conversation trying to think of things from a "back in the day" perspective.

I'm sorry if I misinterpreted something you said. When you stated that various things about hell "severely limits strategy and creative thinking on the player's part" I was trying to offer a counterpoint that there are times when it is thematically appropriate to limit those things. I think the demon-encounters were originally intended to be un-winnable, and thus they are probably a poor place to go looking for that particular kind of challenge.
I don't have any absolute proof that that is what they were intended as, but there is quite a bit of evidence. (I'm about to get carried away here because I love DF-lore, please don't take this personally)(Also, history buffs, correct me if I'm wrong on anything)
There is some interesting (for certain values of interesting) material floating around on the web where Toady talks about early development of Dwarf Fortress. The original idea was that of an adventurer exploring the ruins of a long-lost civilization that had been destroyed by some catastrophe, and slowly unearthing evidence of their trials, tribulations, triumphs, achievements, glory, and eventual downfall. In fortress mode you would create and destroy that civilization, so that in adventure mode you could come back and rediscover it. For me, that realization completely re-contextualizes the game, especially the early versions which are legendary for the sheer amount of factors working against you, and the resulting feeling of things being about to spiral out of control at any time. As near as I can tell, the theme back then seemed to be "It's only a matter of time" (a theme which you can still find plenty of traces of in the way the community thinks today). The HFS from back then fits this perspective well: If you mined a single block of adamantine, then the clock started ticking and one way or another your fortress was at it's end.
I think that's what gave DF a lot of it's early appeal: In most games the theme is to put steadily increasing challenges before you, with the understanding that you will eventually win if you keep trying. In normal games, challenges are there so that the player can have fun defeating them. In DF, challenges are there so that the player can have fun being defeated by them.

Again, I can't prove that this is how the game was originally intended, but the scraps of information I've seen from that period paint a very compelling picture.

Now granted the game has moved away from that theme considerably. It's now more about building an entire fantasy world, with realistic interactions between creatures whether it be on the level of physics or diplomacy. Most of the scripted dangers were also removed in the move to 3D, leaving players much more in control of their own fate. In 40d particularly it was notorious for being so safe that you actually had to try to make your fortress fall! People had to create disasters because they were so bored! (*monocle pops off*)
Again the HFS reflects that. Virtually nobody unleashed demons by accident, you always went looking for them when you got bored, and hoped the RNG would give you fire spirits, because those at least put up a fight, unlike the rest.

I've largely forgotten the point I was trying to make, but I think it is more or less this:
I'm glad that in .31 the game is starting to reincorporate some of those "you won't win" themes that I missed out on (I discovered the game during the 40d era), and while I still want it to be possible to play a safe fortress, I also want to see those themes taken farther, not reduced. That's why I would love to see both pits and hell coexisting in the same world; It would provide a sensible in-game excuse (rather than an artificial init/raws based excuse) for dwarves to unleash captured demons and triumph, while also leaving a convenient source of end-of-the-world-nightmare to satisfy that visceral "build a tower out of blocks and then knock it down" craving that we all have in us somewhere.

Also,
Pilsu hit the nail on the head with all of his points, but particularly this:

I don't really like the fact that the Underworld exists as a z-level. It's just so.. lame. It's a cave. Not an unfathomable pit deep in the bowels of the planet. Not a rip in existence, nestled deep in infinite layers of magma. No, it's a big damn empty cave. An uninspired, featureless, gray hollow taking the place of the glorious magma core of the planet. Slade isn't even a cool name! It could be something mysterious like unknown substance! But no, it's just rock. Just more rock. It even has a name.

Seriously Toady, what were you thinking!?
He had better have something really really cool planned for hell that he just hasn't implemented yet, because otherwise, it's a really dumb idea.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Slade may or may not be reffering to Stewart Slade, writer of The Salvation War, which contains a large DF referance.

[Neonivek]

Well currently the HFS is supposed to represent the final bastion of difficulty with a high risk high reward (Once demons arn't unstoppable) and represent a sort of ongoing corruption in the world.

There are three classes of demons
A) Animals: Any demon you encounter in hell
B) Person: Any Demon you encounter outside hell
C) King: The Supreme demon back in the 2d days

The reason it is so difficult is because it is supposed to be. The game gives you ample warnings that Hell is absolutely deadly and you have more then enough time to seal it up.

Also demons arn't that tough if you have the resources to deal with them, disapointingly so. Dwarves Decked out in Adamantine with legendary or master skills can swath through them. Balistae can moe them down single shot. Walls (unfortunately) can box them in or out and take away any difficulty they possess.

[irmo]

I've largely forgotten the point I was trying to make, but I think it is more or less this:
I'm glad that in .31 the game is starting to reincorporate some of those "you won't win" themes that I missed out on (I discovered the game during the 40d era), and while I still want it to be possible to play a safe fortress, I also want to see those themes taken farther, not reduced. That's why I would love to see both pits and hell coexisting in the same world; It would provide a sensible in-game excuse (rather than an artificial init/raws based excuse) for dwarves to unleash captured demons and triumph, while also leaving a convenient source of end-of-the-world-nightmare to satisfy that visceral "build a tower out of blocks and then knock it down" craving that we all have in us somewhere.

It's probably not possible to make a "sensible in-game" demon invasion that you actually can't beat. And once it's known that it can be beaten, it becomes the Final Final Boss, and then everyone who can't beat it will post threads complaining that enemies that were supposed to be invincible are too hard. The only way to make the demons truly unstoppable is for them to cheat, and then we're back to some form of the 2d endgame, which everyone nowadays seems to agree was unsatisfying. I'd be interested to know whether that's because they did want the chance to fight back, or just because they don't get to see it happen.

I also think for some reason of the end of Shadow of the Colossus, where

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

you are transformed into a giant demon and then sucked into a portal. You can struggle against the portal as long as you want, but you can't escape. The game ends only when you, the player, stop resisting and let it end. This was emotionally satisfying, in a horrible kind of way, but the themes of that game don't mesh very well with DF and I don't think that kind of ending would work.

It might make sense to have a very hard but beatable hell as the endgame for any given fortress, where winning gets you some kind of reward in the larger world. That is, if you win, you now control a small portion of hell. You can, for example, embark into hell. Caravans would come from that fortress bearing sinister treasures and captured demons as exotic pets.

Ideally, this would come with a general move toward having a "position" (in the Chess sense) in the larger game world, which you develop by building fortresses in specific places and doing things with them, and which limits your access to Good Stuff of various kinds. Because the major problem with DF right now, as I see it, is that there are no barriers. All the Good Stuff (places you can embark to, structures you can build, industries you can set up) is available from the beginning, and the rest of the game is an exercise (as you said) in building the tower of blocks and then knocking it down.

I want to build the tower of blocks and then climb on top of it to reach the next box of blocks, which are made out of platinum and menace with spikes of giant cave spider silk.

[Psieye]

So, you want demons to be slightly easier so you can have more creative battles yes? This desire comes because the other military challenges in the game have become mundane easy I presume?

If the above assumptions are true, then you need to wait for the Army Arc. You want big epic battles against serious opponents. Does it HAVE to be demons? DF will eventually have intelligent sieges that either require constant re-design and innovation of your automated defence systems or a solid military to beat. Battles will start being waged with far larger numbers of troops. Entire races will be randomly generated. Once magic kicks in too (with the same randomly generated nature), there will be plenty of challenging battles. Then mods will take it even further for those who really want ultimate bloodbaths.

I suppose I could instead ask: is the Fortress Defence mod boring for you?

[irmo]

If the above assumptions are true, then you need to wait for the Army Arc. You want big epic battles against serious opponents. Does it HAVE to be demons? DF will eventually have intelligent sieges that either require constant re-design and innovation of your automated defence systems or a solid military to beat. Battles will start being waged with far larger numbers of troops. Entire races will be randomly generated. Once magic kicks in too (with the same randomly generated nature), there will be plenty of challenging battles. Then mods will take it even further for those who really want ultimate bloodbaths.

But what I want to know is, will it export maps to Duke Nukem Forever?

[Dradym]

id like to see it actually physically create these world where we could go in person and explore ourselves.....oh wait thats not realistic, but still fun

[Sfon]

Final Final Boss

No because this is Dwarf Fortress, not Final Gear XXII: Barbie's Extreme Makeover Edition. There are no achievements to unlock and most importantly no-one is owed victory. If someone wants to play DF to "complete" it then they are going to need a lot of patience and determination just to stand a chance. And if they cannot do it too bad, that is what makes it a GAME and not a interactive pixelshow that distracts you for a few days then you never play it again.

Yes people are going to complain. Anything not maximally dumbed-down causes whining.

[Axecleaver]

All deamons have [trap_avoid] but a repeater+uprights spears ignores trap avoid (the reason it works on thiefs aswell). this means that if you make a long hallway and fill it with upright spear traps you can basically defeat hell.

Wow! That does make HFS much more manageable. (Except for the whole infinitely respawning part.) I can see how that can make it disappointingly 'beatable' for an end-game thing.

Plenty of people wouldn't be satisfied with hell being anything less than impossible...

Yes, but I suspect the majority of that crowd are hardcore gamers and those who've had a lot of experience playing DF.

And why is that a bad thing? There should always be something to please the best of players. HFS is like a luxurious toy only people with great wealth of knowledge can afford. Everyone else can freely behold its sight behind the display case made of DFReveal. This is not wow.

Perhaps what I wrote could be mis-interpreted that way, but I did not say that it was a bad thing. I was not trying to dis the hard core or elite crowd.

And I think I can understand a need for "something" too keep elite players interested. But does this have to be done by forcing that preference (HFS as a countdown to doom) onto new players as well? (Everyone wins by making this a setting in Init or world gen.)

As for the "luxurious toy" analogy: That seems like an elitist view to me and I found it off-putting. While I understand all too well how steep the learning curve for DF is, I'm not sure how aptly that applies. Everyone was a newbie at some point, when they first start playing.
And for the record, I've never played WoW and I doubt I ever will.

When you stated that various things about hell "severely limits strategy and creative thinking on the player's part" I was trying to offer a counterpoint that there are times when it is thematically appropriate to limit those things.

Hmm... I hadn't thought of it that way. You may have a point. I had been thinking of the Fortress Mode part of DF as primarily a fantasy simulation/strategy game (and a highly sophisticated and complex one), with some degree of RPG. My natural expectation in a strategy game is to see strategy and in-depth thought as central to nearly every aspect.

I also think for some reason of the end of Shadow of the Colossus, where

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

you are transformed into a giant demon and then sucked into a portal. You can struggle against the portal as long as you want, but you can't escape. The game ends only when you, the player, stop resisting and let it end. This was emotionally satisfying, in a horrible kind of way, but the themes of that game don't mesh very well with DF and I don't think that kind of ending would work.

Sorry, but I don't believe I could consider that sort of ending as "emotionally satisfying." But then, that's not the type of game I would play. With DF I can accept that one's fortress will eventually fail (from FPS death, if nothing else), with the hope and fun in trying to keep it going a while longer to keep me playing. And while I do not like concept of a game ending with an inenvitable countdown to doom such as described here, it's the very notion of demon opponents who are invincible that really bothers me. But, to each their own...

PS: I do see the appeal of unleashing HFS upon the elves. (Such as shown in captnduck's Elven Massacre video.)

[rephikul]

And I think I can understand a need for "something" too keep elite players interested. But does this have to be done by forcing that preference (HFS as a countdown to doom) onto new players as well? (Everyone wins by making this a setting in Init or world gen.)

You cannot say it's the panda's fault for eating your parents if it was YOU who opened the cage. Nothing is forced on the new players. DF has always been a scaling game where more !!FUN!! features are unlocked by the player as they get better. You dont know how to deal with optional features which people have consistently beaten before yet came crying the game's too hard and doesnt stop even when told. You are like the orphaned child who lean his face against the display glass for hours everyday dreaming about getting the luxurious toy instead of doing something practical to get it.


On a side note, this is copied directly from urban dictionary:

3. noob
A "noob" is a person who is new or inexperienced in a subject, usually an online game. Noobs are usually annoying and excessively stupid. Do not confuse noobs with newbs, who are inexperienced players that tend to be more mature and strive to become better.

[Fayrik]

And I think I can understand a need for "something" too keep elite players interested. But does this have to be done by forcing that preference (HFS as a countdown to doom) onto new players as well? (Everyone wins by making this a setting in Init or world gen.)

You cannot say it's the panda's fault for eating your parents if it was YOU who opened the cage. Nothing is forced on the new players. DF has always been a scaling game where more !!FUN!! features are unlocked by the player as they get better. You dont know how to deal with optional features which people have consistently beaten before yet came crying the game's too hard and doesnt stop even when told. You are like the orphaned child who lean his face against the display glass for hours everyday dreaming about getting the luxurious toy instead of doing something practical to get it.


On a side note, this is copied directly from urban dictionary:

3. noob
A "noob" is a person who is new or inexperienced in a subject, usually an online game. Noobs are usually annoying and excessively stupid. Do not confuse noobs with newbs, who are inexperienced players that tend to be more mature and strive to become better.

Copied for relevence.

Because, it strikes me that, actually, you can turn the HFS off. It's there for the more experienced players, and really, I can't see much beyond that.

[Axecleaver]

...it strikes me that, actually, you can turn the HFS off. It's there for the more experienced players...

That's a good point.
But "new" players probably don't know how to turn HFS off or even that this is possible. More experienced players, however, would know about such settings. Which is why I suggested it be made so it was more accessible to new players, with an extra (non-default) setting(s) to make things even more "fun" for those who want that.

And I honestly did not believe that Upright Spear/Spike traps would work on HFS - not only because they're [trap_avoid], but also because they're building destroyers. From that, I've had to re-evaluate my estimation of HFS difficulty. Though, this is not the way I'd want to defeat them. It seems too cheap.

You dont know how to deal with optional features which people have consistently beaten before yet came crying the game's too hard and doesnt stop even when told.

Interesting. This is the first I've heard that I had been told to 'stop crying' or that I was "annoying" or out of line. I started this thread to ask why HFS are so overpowered and to discuss suggestions on the subject. This was done with the understanding that participation on this forum was open, as long as conversation was kept clean and polite. The words written here speak for themselves.

Technically, noob (or "n00b") isn't recognized as a real word. But even as slang, many sources merely lump it together with newb and newbie. There are many different definitions and it really depends on who you ask. Personally, I find this one fitting:

What is a NOOB???

Post by qcstar on Feb 24, 2006, 1:51pm

Shortened form of "newbie," the most hilarious insult ever invented, in which a person who uses a computer game too much is ridiculing one who does not, for being "new" at the game, which of course they once were.

Generally speaking, the speaker of this "insult" is one who should be on the receiving end of most insults. Commonly found in allegiance with "1337$1'331<," or "leetspeak," the accepted language of computer gaming geeks which takes a ludicrous amount of time to type.

Example: "MY ARE 1337 CRO-MAGNON H4XX0R!!! MY ARE PWN J00!!! n00b!!!"

On a side note, this is copied directly from urban dictionary:

1. troll    
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.

Incidentally, I now find it ironic that you said "This is not wow" earlier because, from what others have told me about WoW forums, they are not at all friendly places.

Considering that I failed to take the bait in another thread, I can now see where this is coming from. Being still new here and still learning the game, I must have seemed an easy mark. I suppose I can only blame myself for not noticing the pattern sooner.

Anyway, thank you rephikul for reminding me to be more careful in choosing whether or not to respond to comments. And for reminding me that this forum is for the benefit of enjoying the game.

Also, I want to thank others in this thread for sharing their views and explaining certain aspects of HFS. I've learned some useful things about it and even changed some of my perceptions. The main reason I've been posting so much recently is to learn even more about playing DF. But also to make suggestions - to have my voice be heard on the direction I'd like to see the development of DF go.

Now that I've said my piece and I'm through with this topic, I'm going back to my game.

[Neonivek]

Except for the whole infinitely respawning part

Except for some creatures everything is supposed to have unlimited spawns and even THEN Toady is thinking of giving them a method of reproduction. It is just due to glitches, bugs, and incomplete programming that it isn't.

I mean... You just broke into an entire ecosystem comprised entirely of supernatural beings of great corrupting power completely untouched by the wide open world. Why would there only be a few?

It is bad enough when a fortress runs out of an animal after killing five.

Also appart from the unbeatable demons, which are due to a glitch, and the trap-avoid, which is on its way out eventually, you havn't really demonstrated that for an endgame challenge that they are unreasonably difficult. A fortress of 100 Dwarves generally has a large soldier army (I personally say it should be at 50) each with good substantial equipment and a lot of experience.

Compared that you can wall off hell... if anything it is too easy not too cripplingly easy. Heck even the terrain is suprisingly harmless with muddy tree fill terrain. If there weren't demons there I'd just think I entered another cave system.

I think Hell in Dwarf Fortress is WAAAAAY too underkill. In fact why have you even lost Topic creator? What in the world did you use to defend yourself against hell?