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[Sergius]

Relaying news on the matter -

United Nations chief torture investigator has taken a personal interest in Pvt. Bradley Manning.  The article rambles on about his prison conditions for those interested, but the important thing is the links to other major news outlets, to confirm that the U.N. is indeed preparing to weigh in on the issue.  Not that the U.N. has any kind of binding power of course, but the WikiLeaks matter is at heart a battle of and over diplomacy.

United Nations and other international diplomatic organizations officially declare their opinion that states have the right to keep information secret, but access to and publication of information, included leaked secret information, is a human right.  The statement itself.

Don't know if this has been posted before:

http://my.firedoglake.com/blog/2010/12/23/bradley-manning-speaks-about-his-conditions/

A first person account of the mistreatment of Manning, the lies of the Pentagon, and the details of his continued torture under the pretense of "Prevention of Injury". Also, the serious negative effects the treatment has had on Manning's health and mental well-being.

[SalmonGod]

I'm shaking with rage after reading that.  Behold the consequences for acting according to one's conscience, as all human beings should.  Reminds me of Battle Royale.  Beat it into people's heads that good intentions only get you stabbed in the back, because they can never unite as long as they believe that.

[Zangi]

Double standards is the name of the game.  'We' can do no wrong.  Anything you do that inconveniences 'us' is wrong.

[Sergius]

Here's some double standards

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As is true for so much of what it does, the U.S. Government routinely condemns similar acts -- the use of prolonged solitary confinement in its most extreme forms and lengthy pretrial detention -- when used by other countries.  See, for instance, the 2009 State Department Human Rights Report on Indonesia ("Officials held unruly detainees in solitary confinement for up to six days on a rice-and-water diet"); Iran ("Common methods of torture and abuse in prisons included prolonged solitary confinement with extreme sensory deprivation . . .Prison conditions were poor. Many prisoners were held in solitary confinement . . . Authorities routinely held political prisoners in solitary confinement for extended periods . . . All four [arrested bloggers] claimed authorities physically and psychologically abused them in detention, including subjecting them to prolonged periods of solitary confinement in a secret detention center without access to legal counsel or family"); Israel ("Israeli human rights organizations reported that Israeli interrogators . . .  kept prisoners in harsh conditions, including solitary confinement for long periods"); Iraq ("Individuals claimed to have been subjected to psychological and physical abuse, including . . . solitary confinement in Ashraf to discourage defections"); Yemen ("Sleep deprivation and solitary confinement were other forms of abuse reported in PSO prisons"); Central African Republic ("As of December, there were 308 inmates in Ngaragba Prison, most of whom are pretrial detainees. Several detainees had been held for seven months without appearing before a judge"); Burundi ("Human rights problems also included . . . prolonged pretrial detention").

[Urist is dead tome]

I'm shaking with rage after reading that.  Behold the consequences for acting according to one's conscience, as all human beings should.  Reminds me of Battle Royale.  Beat it into people's heads that good intentions only get you stabbed in the back, because they can never unite as long as they believe that.

I'm sorry but what good intentions? This man is being held in conditions that are deplorable. I can not deny that. But this man also committed treason. It's uncomfortable. But it's treason.

[SalmonGod]

I'm shaking with rage after reading that.  Behold the consequences for acting according to one's conscience, as all human beings should.  Reminds me of Battle Royale.  Beat it into people's heads that good intentions only get you stabbed in the back, because they can never unite as long as they believe that.

I'm sorry but what good intentions? This man is being held in conditions that are deplorable. I can not deny that. But this man also committed treason. It's uncomfortable. But it's treason.

We've discussed this already.

Edit:  Think of it this way.  You could argue that his actions are treason against the U.S..  I don't think so, but you can make that argument, especially from a strictly legal sense.

But I consider myself someone who has equal obligation to the human race as a whole, not just a single nation.  From my perspective as such, he has not committed treason.  He's exposed it.

[Eugenitor]

What gets me is that he moved the leaks back and forth on a CD marked Lady Gaga.

That's like smuggling pot in a truck labeled Colombian Cocaine Importers, Ltd.

[Urist is dead tome]

I'm shaking with rage after reading that.  Behold the consequences for acting according to one's conscience, as all human beings should.  Reminds me of Battle Royale.  Beat it into people's heads that good intentions only get you stabbed in the back, because they can never unite as long as they believe that.

I'm sorry but what good intentions? This man is being held in conditions that are deplorable. I can not deny that. But this man also committed treason. It's uncomfortable. But it's treason.

We've discussed this already.

Edit:  Think of it this way.  You could argue that his actions are treason against the U.S..  I don't think so, but you can make that argument, especially from a strictly legal sense.

But I consider myself someone who has equal obligation to the human race as a whole, not just a single nation.  From my perspective as such, he has not committed treason.  He's exposed it.

But how were his actions good intentions?

[Zangi]

I'm shaking with rage after reading that.  Behold the consequences for acting according to one's conscience, as all human beings should.  Reminds me of Battle Royale.  Beat it into people's heads that good intentions only get you stabbed in the back, because they can never unite as long as they believe that.

I'm sorry but what good intentions? This man is being held in conditions that are deplorable. I can not deny that. But this man also committed treason. It's uncomfortable. But it's treason.

We've discussed this already.

Edit:  Think of it this way.  You could argue that his actions are treason against the U.S..  I don't think so, but you can make that argument, especially from a strictly legal sense.

But I consider myself someone who has equal obligation to the human race as a whole, not just a single nation.  From my perspective as such, he has not committed treason.  He's exposed it.

But how were his actions good intentions?

Depends on who you ask...

[Bauglir]

I'm shaking with rage after reading that.  Behold the consequences for acting according to one's conscience, as all human beings should.  Reminds me of Battle Royale.  Beat it into people's heads that good intentions only get you stabbed in the back, because they can never unite as long as they believe that.

I'm sorry but what good intentions? This man is being held in conditions that are deplorable. I can not deny that. But this man also committed treason. It's uncomfortable. But it's treason.

We've discussed this already.

Edit:  Think of it this way.  You could argue that his actions are treason against the U.S..  I don't think so, but you can make that argument, especially from a strictly legal sense.

But I consider myself someone who has equal obligation to the human race as a whole, not just a single nation.  From my perspective as such, he has not committed treason.  He's exposed it.

But how were his actions good intentions?

His intention was to cause the military to act with a greater sense of responsibility toward the people it ostensibly protects. As for whether or not he's committed treason, it's for the courts to decide whether what he did constituted treason or not; I'm given to understand that there's actually no laws against what he did, but I could be mistaken. In any case, his obligation to the military ought not be used as reason for this sort of pre-emptive punishment. Without question, he should be dishonorably discharged; that's an appropriate punishment for violating military protocol and acting against his own military. And it's a military punishment. He might then be tried for any crimes he committed, but as a civilian, and not with this "guilty until determined innocent, so we totally don't have to care about his mental health," nonsense.

[Virex]

I don't really want to invoke Godwin's law on this thread (or actually it's pacific counterpart), so I'll just point out that good intentions and following your conscience don't always have results that are desirable.

[Bauglir]

I don't really want to invoke Godwin's law on this thread (or actually it's pacific counterpart), so I'll just point out that good intentions and following your conscience don't always have results that are desirable.

Obviously. That first sentence was really just an attempt to point out what conceivable good intentions Manning could have had. Honestly, I don't think what he did was wrong, except possibly a lack of discretion (I'm not aware of any particulars that he ought not to have leaked, though, but then, I'm not exactly sure which of the Wikileaks documents were from him), but it's not because "He meant the best". Again, he ought to be removed from the military; he clearly violated its rules and should be punished for that. But that doesn't justify what's being done to him.

[SalmonGod]

I don't really want to invoke Godwin's law on this thread (or actually it's pacific counterpart), so I'll just point out that good intentions and following your conscience don't always have results that are desirable.

I don't think good intentions and Godwin's Law have much to do with each other at all... the actions of Nazis were not carried out with good intentions, at least not for the majority of the world.

And while it's true that a person can do bad things with good intentions, this isn't very useful to point out except as a plea to think through one's actions.  If you really want to invoke Godwin, Manning could have been exposing secrets of the Nazi government leading up to WW2.  I'm sure they would also accuse him of treason.

[ChairmanPoo]

I don't want to invoke Godwin's law, but if you don't agree with my political opinions you're driving with Hitler.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[dragonshardz]

* dragonshardz invokes Godwin's Law.

There.

Discussion as usual may now resume.