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[dragonshardz]

If I ever travel abroad, I'm Canadian. That's my story. There will be no deviation, eh.

Same. Though I could probably pull off Irish if I tried.

[Flaede]

Which as a 'canadian' i find bad enough,. Current government look like something just out of W era.

Indeed. The whole playing partisan politics with international intitiatives started by us kind of horrifies me.

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

Which as a 'canadian' i find bad enough,. Current government look like something just out of W era.

Indeed. The whole playing partisan politics with international intitiatives started by us kind of horrifies me.

hed rather go to a tim horton than a UN reunion, but damn if wont go to cancun to make us look like fucking Captain Planet villains.

[Alexhans]

Which is kind of silly. Leaks are nothing new.

I keep hearing this in US mass media and it seems to have sunk in.  A good way to keep people from prodding.  Those who believe this won't pay attention to the information, just to the current hype.

On one hand, claim that they're risking lives everywhere. 
On the other, tell people that the information is just political gossip, nothing, really.

Luckily, I've learned to recognize fallacies.

[dragonshardz]

http://youtu.be/WpwVfl3m32w?hd=1

[Sir Pseudonymous]

Which is kind of silly. Leaks are nothing new.

I keep hearing this in US mass media and it seems to have sunk in.  A good way to keep people from prodding.  Those who believe this won't pay attention to the information, just to the current hype.

On one hand, claim that they're risking lives everywhere. 
On the other, tell people that the information is just political gossip, nothing, really.

Luckily, I've learned to recognize fallacies.

Yes, because the media is one big hivemind blob.

You have the bombastic idiots screaming about treason ("What do you mean he ain't american, he's white and he speaks english! Australia? That's just Texas 2.0: The Island of Poisonous Everything Edition!") and all sorts of horrible effects, and levelheaded commenters responding with "What the fuck is wrong with you? Nothing that's been released is dangerous, or really even surprising in the least."

[Phmcw]

It's true that after the war logs and the collateral murder video, this stuff seems pretty minor. Plus they had tons of time to prepare.
I think that is more something along the line that they don't care about war crime, because they can just spout justifications, and enough poeple with buy it, but they can't afford to get they real foreign policy unveiled just yet.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

It's true that after the war logs and the collateral murder video, this stuff seems pretty minor. Plus they had tons of time to prepare.

Not really, pretty much all of the things some people are screaming about are pretty unimportant in the grand scheme of things. "OMG! Helicopter pilots in a warzone (and probably wired on amphetamines (or did they stop pumping pilots full of those?)), sitting in a tiny compartment in the front of a very expensive piece of machinery fired on an apparently armed group of people! And the gubmint didn't say "oops, there were a couple of journalists there too, let's crucify the pilots to be on the safe side!"?! Unthinkable!"

And the latest things are all either "Yeah, what the fuck did you think intelligence agencies did, anyways? Sit around jerking each other off?" or "Yeah, diplomacy is more complicated than press conferences, what the fuck did you think it was?"

I think that is more something along the line that they don't care about war crime, because they can just spout justifications, and enough poeple with buy it, but they can't afford to get they real foreign policy unveiled just yet.

"Real foreign policy"? You speak as though treachery and realpolitik were anything but how diplomacy and intelligence has always been, is, and will always be handled. That is how those things work. If you don't play by those rules, you lose to those who do. Principles and honor have no place when lives are at stake, beyond keeping the appearance of such to pacify those who are less pragmatic.

[Leafsnail]

Not really, pretty much all of the things some people are screaming about are pretty unimportant in the grand scheme of things. "OMG! Helicopter pilots in a warzone (and probably wired on amphetamines (or did they stop pumping pilots full of those?)), sitting in a tiny compartment in the front of a very expensive piece of machinery fired on an apparently armed group of people! And the gubmint didn't say "oops, there were a couple of journalists there too, let's crucify the pilots to be on the safe side!"?! Unthinkable!"

Have you watched the video?  It's... pretty shocking.  It's not just that they were firing on civilians, it's that they were actively seeking an excuse to and enjoying it.

That's not supposed to be the main motivation for a soldier outside of a Call of Duty game.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

You realize that's a coping mechanism, if a subconscious one, right? A soldier's job involves killing whomever they are ordered to kill, do you think it's psychologically healthy for them not to compartmentalize the act into something distinct from the full realization of what their actions ultimately mean? Even if in this particular case their actions cross the line of what's acceptable, coming down on them would have an extremely dangerous affect on morale, and publicly admitting to the incident would result in a bunch of halfwits screaming "OMG AL SOLIDERS IS MURDERS!", as was the case when it was leaked. Both war and politics are filthy fucking business, and a lot of people don't like to acknowledge that. Now, there are things that they're doing quite wrong, perhaps unsurprisingly these are the things they trumpet the loudest. I suppose it makes a twisted kind of sense, when you think about that critically: ineffectual bullshit like the TSA are both a smokescreen that makes US defense seem incompetent (lulling potential threats into a false sense of security), and are a convincing enough show to make most of the population believe that things all nice and safe, because they wouldn't be so radically inconvenienced and humiliated if it didn't work, after all! That it provides many unskilled jobs and buys extremely expensive, but ultimately useless high-tech gadgets is just a nice little bonus for the economy when it comes down to it (remember that spending doesn't exist in a vacuum, any money spent on americans and not on foreign countries is a good thing, though that's been taken to extremes by the very people who bitch and moan about government spending the most; they can't be bothered to actually help their own fucking people by providing healthcare, but they pour massive amounts into incompetent, wasteful private contractors)...

Now of course the actual leaking of that, and the other documents, was a crime, but I still feel sorry for the poor bastard they're court marshaling over it. He's just a dumbshit kid who thought he was doing the right thing, and he doesn't deserve the crucifixion that he will undoubtedly receive. Note that the publishing, and republishing of that information, however, was most certainly not illegal, for a myriad of reasons that have already been argued to death.

[GlyphGryph]

Sir Pseudo, a few issues with what you've said...

If you don't play by those rules, you lose to those who do. Principles and honor have no place when lives are at stake, beyond keeping the appearance of such to pacify those who are less pragmatic.

"you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall"
Yeah, I'm sorry, but that's BS.  Principles and honour most definitely have a place - of course they need to be tempered by pragmatism. But if your guys have no principles and no honour, YOU can't trust them. And then how do you know if they're doing things to save lives, or doing things to help themselves. Principles and honour are strategic rather than pragmatic methodologies - they are long term, rather than short term, and you damn well bet they have an important place where lives are at stake. How else do you explain the Marines and their "no man gets left behind" policy? Sometimes the obvious results (squads getting killed trying to rescue a single man who is wounded) are not the most important ones (a huge boost in morale, trust, and unit efficiency).

Reputation is important. It needs to be cultivated, especially in the modern age. If you've got to take a shit, cleaning it up is a lot easier if you don't roll around in it all day long.

"What the fuck is wrong with you? Nothing that's been released is dangerous, or really even surprising in the least."

And I still think this is the most important part. There are some things in there that we shouldn't be doing, but the worst of it is the sheer mind boggling amount of stuff that has absolutely no purpose being classified, and the incompetence that seems to permeate every level of these organizations. They don't reveal some big evil conspiracy - they reveal a government full of people acting with a minimum of oversight, barely any accountability, very little skill, and no respect for the long term consequences of their actions, and how broken our system of government secrecy is where anything and everything, no matter how unimportant to matters of national security, gets classified and filed away.

The only thing thing worse than that that I've seen as a result of the cables release is the US governments reaction to it.

[Phmcw]

Yes, we're back on 44, those without an Iron will loose.

No sir. This is a police operation in a foreign country , labeled for convenience "war on terror".
Engagement policies are grossly unadapted and loss of civilian lives ensued.
Several treaties are violated in this video, including one who says it's illegal to use anti tank guns against infantry.
If this was a total war, I could understand.
In this totally asymmetric war, it's inhumane and stupid.

The problem with the leak of the cables, is that they clearly show America meddling with internal affairs of several countries. They show European politician bowing to America against the best interest of their peoples.
They show a lot of things that we do not want and that we are going to oppose.

Yes, this is harmful to America, and good for the rest of the world.
They show the world as it is.

Now go back and put your blindfold on, big brother know what is best for you. Democracy is stupid anyway.

[RedKing]

Several treaties are violated in this video, including one who says it's illegal to use anti tank guns against infantry.

Common misconception. There is in fact, no prohibition on the use of anti-tank guns against infantry. There are some conventions (the St. Petersburg Conventions actually, not Geneva) against using exploding bullets against infantry, but that is significantly different from an anti-tank shell.

Rather than wade into the clusterfuck of a debate about whether war should even have rules, I'd just like to say that Assange's ass is toast. If he *were* an American, he'd be dead by now. He hasn't just made the US look bad, he's made a lot of countries' governments looks bad. And when you piss off the collective weight of the world's intelligence and diplomatic services, guess what? You lose. Your website will be denied a host with anything larger than a 300 baud modem, your financial assets will be frozen, and you will not find a safe haven to move freely in.

And while we (post-60s) Americans are culturally reared to cheer for the little guy, the vigilante standing up against The Man, the guy speaking Truth to Power....Assange is none of these. He's an arrogant twat who lucked into probably the largest security breach in American history, and has been wielding it like a little kid waving a flaming torch.

[Flaede]

Which is kind of silly. Leaks are nothing new.

I keep hearing this in US mass media and it seems to have sunk in.  A good way to keep people from prodding.  Those who believe this won't pay attention to the information, just to the current hype.

On one hand, claim that they're risking lives everywhere. 
On the other, tell people that the information is just political gossip, nothing, really.

Luckily, I've learned to recognize fallacies.

Whoa. Whoa. I'm not saying it's not important stuff. I'm not saying it's "gossip and nothing more". I'm saying that it is a leak. There have been leaks before, but somehow this one is going to be seen as the measuring stick for future leaks for a long time to come.

EDIT: also, that means the people who treat this as unbelievable 'treason' and a horrible unprecedented thing are being a little silly.

It is important. The stuff in there (aside from the silly gossip stuff) is fascinating. As for risking lives, it's hard to say about that one, but I don't think much of that if any is happening with the cable leaks. I'm not sure about the earlier leak with the military stuff as I haven't dug into that one as in depth. Media I've read/seen seems to have more of a case for saying lives were risked there, but that can be very misleading.

[Tsarwash]

The most important issue for me is the balanced reporting of the two military actions seem to be disallowed, which means that ally soldiers can easily get away with overstepping the mark. There is no mechanism for reigning in the actions of the individuals when they go too far.

If we can invade a country, against public opinion, without a clear mandate to do so, and heavily censor the journalists reporting the deeds, and protect the soldiers in whatever actions that they do, until clear abuse of position becomes obvious, and attempt to prosecute any people who make information of abuse public, then how can you distinguish us from a totalitarian dictatorship ? This is exactly how tinpot dictatorships would act. I cannot see the difference. We cannot call ourselves the defenders of democracy and the free world if we act just like the bad guys.

Just because the regimes that we are fighting against are obviously unwanted and harmful, does not automatically put us on the side of good.