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[ChairmanPoo]

, I know given your massive research of the case you've decided its clearly not rape, but the courts haven't. No offense, but I'll wait for their judgment.

I didn't do massive research. I just linked the first google site. That's precisedly the point: you keep RAEGing about people's supposed lack of research when you won't be bothered to run "assange swedish women" in a search engine.

[Earthquake Damage]

His mind's made up.  Don't confuse him with facts. 

RE Renault's sig:  Respect.  \m/,

[Renault]

Yes, I'm aware you only searched for one source, Chairman. I was being facetious. If you looked beyond that, you'd notice there are many sources that say other things and the one you're quoting relies on the story given by a tabloid.

edit, lost my temper a little and got sort of rude. Sorry about the insult that was here, it wasn't called for.

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

Clearly, I have found a reliable news source for this whole scandal: NMA TV

EDIT: also, yeah, no trashing the plaintiff in a rape case. ever. not cool.

Indeed it's not, and it would be nice if you stopped putting intentions i dont have. Havent talked against them, just reported the situation. I havent said they were plant, or radical feminist. If you would deign to read and see that what i'm saying is that they may have been pressured to put the charges.

[Outcast Orange]

Clearly, I have found a reliable news source for this whole scandal: NMA TV

EDIT: also, yeah, no trashing the plaintiff in a rape case. ever. not cool.

X D

I love that so much.

[Renault]

Look, I think this whole thing has gotten sort of weird. I don't like the idea that other bay12er's are okay with passing judgment on a rape case based off of that shitty tabloid article and the internet echo-chamber. Can we just all agree that its a bad idea to do that? Thats all I've been trying to accomplish.

Oh, and thanks, quake. Its a good song.  I'm still trying to figure out if you were insulting me though

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

Especially since i did no such thing and yet you bring it back again and again. Drop it and ill do so too.

[SalmonGod]

I totally agree.  I've sacrificed much to help someone very close to me heal trauma stemming from extensive abuse suffered as a child.  I'm extremely sympathetic to rape victims.  I think the treatment of Assange's alleged victims is pretty horrific.  Many people have exhibited horrible judgement and callousness in digging up information on two women because they made official claims of victimization.

However, I'd be lying if the things we have learned haven't colored my perceptions of the situation.  I do think people are too quick to tiptoe around the word rape at times.  It's a word that carries very very heavy implications, but in proportion to those implications, it is way too prolifically used.  I think the first mental image for most people when the word rape is used is of some kind of creepy man in a dark alley, probably with a weapon, pouncing on some random, innocent girl.  Using such a powerful word in more grey area situations involving complex personal interactions often ends up really unfair for everyone involved.  Just as we shouldn't presume either side's guilt or innocence in the case, we also shouldn't presume a hush toned "omg... rape..." attitude about the whole situation, either, due to the psychological context that creates.

[Renault]

Salmon, I know what you're saying, and I understand it entirely. But I think you should read this. http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32306

Note the botton: "Acquaintance rape victims have myriad concerns. The fear of being blamed, fear of their families, friends or the general public knowing about their victimization, or a sense of futileness due to the belief that justice will not be served prevent many victims from coming forward. Preventing secondary victimizations to acquaintance rape victims by the criminal justice system and society is a major concern of the victims' rights movement." Sound vaguely familiar?

Rape is a powerful word. But it seems like most of the time, unless a women is jumped in an alley, people line up to cast doubts on her story and guess as to her motives. I'd just really like to see that stopped.

[SalmonGod]

Salmon, I know what you're saying, and I understand it entirely. But I think you should read this. http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32306

Note the botton: "Acquaintance rape victims have myriad concerns. The fear of being blamed, fear of their families, friends or the general public knowing about their victimization, or a sense of futileness due to the belief that justice will not be served prevent many victims from coming forward. Preventing secondary victimizations to acquaintance rape victims by the criminal justice system and society is a major concern of the victims' rights movement." Sound vaguely familiar?

Rape is a powerful word. But it seems like most of the time, unless a women is jumped in an alley, people line up to cast doubts on her story and guess as to her motives. I'd just really like to see that stopped.

Yeah I understand.  It's a really difficult subject to approach with fairness to both sides.  If you treat the rape context as too sacred, then it's unfair detriment to the accused.  Too lightly and it's disrespectful to the accuser.  I'd prefer people just speak frankly.

And actually I think their motives are perfectly reasonable.  It makes sense that they would come to the realization that the guy is a sleaze ball after discovering each other and then decide it would be a good idea to check for STDs.  Some of the accusations I'm passing no judgement on.  Nobody knows if one of them asked him to stop and he then proceeded to hold her down by force.  There's no information out there with any bearing on such a claim.  I think people are trying way too hard with the accusations of CIA links and such, and while possible, I see them as unlikely. 

I've also completely accepted that Assange is a sleaze ball, at least when it comes to relationships.  There's no denying that at this point.  It has little effect on the value I see in his work, or at least the work that he publicly represents.  People can be awesome in some ways and horrible in others.  There's one guy I know who has dicked over most of the women in my social circle, but he also worked for years as a behavioral therapist with low-functioning young adults... literally getting shit on and risking serious injury (one of his patients was strong enough to rip a toilet out of the floor) to help people that almost no one cares about.

I do question the responsibility of the girls in throwing the world into an uproar if all they really want is some STD tests done.  I sincerely hope there were some seriously sinister events to justify their actions within a context of such global ramifications.

[Phmcw]

As I said in another thread, rape is the weapon of choice when you want to discredit someone.
Hard to prove innocent, incredibly harmfull for the reputation, no chance to get sympathy from the public,...
And that's why I don't believe it, just as I wouldn't believe it if they said that he commited suicide in prison.


On the matter of the allegation of the two women, please keep in mind that even in the tabloid it's their varsion they give (and given my trust for tabloid, I try not to even read it.)

To me he's innocent until proven guilty, and have my supprot until I get very solid evidence of his culpability.
I don't think he will have a fair trial either.

[Renault]

Again, the tabloid isn't their version. Its a story the tabloid claims to have gathered from "a number sources." That is it. That is all anyone knows. A tabloid published an incredibly-onesided account. Here it is. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1336291/Wikileaks-Julian-Assanges-2-night-stands-spark-worldwide-hunt.html

Enjoy. Realize this is a joke of a magazine and they don't say where they got any of their information. No, the women didn't give this story. You don't know the story they gave because it hasn't gone to trial. You have this tabloids coverage. Currently their homepage features Celion Dion's "miracle twin boys" Ah, Journalism.

I'm not "raging," I'm just a little peeved that ordinarily-intelligent people are getting so sucked up into this stupid tabloid spin cycle just because they like Julian Assange. The guy might be an information hero. But jesus, give the women a chance before you paint them as villains. What if their story is true? Innocent until proven guilty goes both ways--and yet so many people have rushed attack them.

[Cthulhu]

As I said in another thread, rape is the weapon of choice when you want to discredit someone.
Hard to prove innocent, incredibly harmfull for the reputation, no chance to get sympathy from the public,...
And that's why I don't believe it, just as I wouldn't believe it if they said that he commited suicide in prison.


On the matter of the allegation of the two women, please keep in mind that even in the tabloid it's their varsion they give (and given my trust for tabloid, I try not to even read it.)

To me he's innocent until proven guilty, and have my supprot until I get very solid evidence of his culpability.
I don't think he will have a fair trial either.

Is he innocent or proven guilty, or have you already decided he's innocent regardless of what official inquiries determine?  Because I'm willing to bet you've gone with the latter.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

I'm not "raging," I'm just a little peeved that ordinarily-intelligent people are getting so sucked up into this stupid tabloid spin cycle just because they like Julian Assange. The guy might be an information hero. But jesus, give the women a chance before you paint them as villains. What if their story is true? Innocent until proven guilty goes both ways--and yet so many people have rushed attack them.

No, he's a narcissistic anarchist lunatic, but the case against him was so weak that, you know the prosecutors dropped the case, only to pick it up months later when he was suddenly (in)famous.

[Phmcw]

Is he innocent or proven guilty, or have you already decided he's innocent regardless of what official inquiries determine?  Because I'm willing to bet you've gone with the latter.

He is innocent until proved guilty, and they better be convincing in their official inquiry regardless of that if they want to be believed.

For all we know, everything in this tabloid could be bs.

However, the damage is done : half the poeple on this forum are calling him a womanizing asshole based on the unbacked affirmation of a tabloid.