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Author Topic: Wikileaks guy arrested, Senator attempting retroactive law changing!  (Read 48809 times)

Phmcw

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Re: Wikileaks guy arrested, Senator attempting retroactive law changing!
« Reply #255 on: December 09, 2010, 05:25:07 pm »

Is he innocent or proven guilty, or have you already decided he's innocent regardless of what official inquiries determine?  Because I'm willing to bet you've gone with the latter.

He is innocent until proved guilty, and they better be convincing in their official inquiry regardless of that if they want to be believed.


Let's not be coy, we both know there's nothing that can be presented at that hearing that will change your mind.

I said, if they want to be believed. I won't trust them whatever they may pull out.
Yes, my mind is pretty much dead set on that one.
It's just too convenient.
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MiniMacker

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Re: Wikileaks guy arrested, Senator attempting retroactive law changing!
« Reply #256 on: December 09, 2010, 05:49:15 pm »

I'm just going to take the video Collateral Murder as my stand point.
A video of an Apache helicopter circling an area of New Bagdad, where reports of a firefight had broken out. When the Apache arrived at the scene, there was no firefight, but still they saw a small group of people on the ground. They held what looked like AK-47 rifles, when it was really a camera.

The people on the ground were civilians and two journalists. You can say one of them held some sort of AK-47, but it could've been anything. A tripod for the camera, a stick, or indeed a weapon. So the helicopter requested permission to open fire, which was granted. One of the cameramen bent down with his camera. It looked like an RPG and the crew panicked.
But wait a minute. They requested permission to fire BEFORE they saw the potential RPG threat.

Yeah, think about it.


Even though some of them lacked visual proof of firearms, they still fired upon them with a hail of 30mm cannon rounds. Everyone was killed except one man who was brutally wounded.

"Oh yeah, look at those dead bastards," says one crewman after multiple rounds of 30mm cannon fire left nearly a dozen bodies littering the street.

They circle around him, waiting for him to pick up a "potential weapon".
They say things like "Pick it up, buddy!" "Come on, do it!", because if he picks it up, they will be able to fire due to the Rules of Engagement.

A minute or so later, a van pulls up and a bunch of civilians see what has happened. Corpses lay scattered while one man, the heavily wounded, lie on the pavement. The gunner begs for permission to open fire on the van and its occupants, even though it has done nothing but stop to help the wounded: "Come on, let us shoot!"
Headquarters responds and they open fire.
There were two children in the van, both wounded, but they survive.


If you listen to the dialogue, it sounds as if they're in a video game, racking up a kill count while the adrenaline rushes through their blood.


It was unknown if they found any weapons. The public report said nothing of their "potential firearms", so they might have been COMPLETELY unarmed.



The military covered it up and the video never saw the light of day. Until a respected soldier gave it to Wikileaks.


Quote from: New York Times
The American military said in a statement late Thursday that 11 people had been killed: nine insurgents and two civilians. According to the statement, American troops were conducting a raid when they were hit by small-arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades. The American troops called in reinforcements and attack helicopters. In the ensuing fight, the statement said, the two Reuters employees and nine insurgents were killed.


"There is no question that coalition forces were clearly engaged in combat operations against a hostile force," said Lt. Col. Scott Bleichwehl, a spokesman for the multinational forces in Baghdad.

The people in the video aren't regarded upon as people. Just targets ready to be filled with lead.

The worst part is, the soldiers were never confronted with this. Obviously this video has been seen by the military, since they hid it away, but yet nothing was done. Not even a discharge from the army.
What the FUCK?



The fun part is, the report had the balls to claim that the two journalists were killed in a clash between the U.S military and the Coalition Militia. Even though you can clearly see them being gunned down BY the U.S.


And another extended part of the video is also interesting.
In a building not far from there, a man with a firearm is spotted. Even though you can clearly see civilians WALKING BY AND INTO THE BUILDING, they fire two Hellfire missiles at it, killing a reported 6. Neighbouring witnesses claim there were at least 9 to 12 people in the building.


In fact, check the timeline at http://collateralmurder.com/en/timeline.html it's almost sickening.

Quote
July 16th, 2007 Reuters seeks U.S. probe into the killings of their staff. "Our preliminary investigation raises real questions about whether there was fighting at the time the two men were killed," said David Schlesinger, editor-in-chief of Reuters. Specifically, Reuters wanted an explanation of why the two cameras were confiscated, access to any cameras onboard the Apache helicopters that were involved in the incident, access to any voice communications between the helicopter crews and U.S. ground forces and access to reports from the unit involved in the incident, in particular a log of any weapons taken from the scene.

They confiscated their cameras and the onboard helicopter video.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 06:03:54 pm by MiniMacker »
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Realmfighter

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Re: Wikileaks guy arrested, Senator attempting retroactive law changing!
« Reply #257 on: December 09, 2010, 06:03:28 pm »

What the FUCK?

People are bastards???...

What do you want answered? Why the military wouldn't want people knowing that there soldiers are bastards? Why they would do it in the first place? Why they didn't fire them for this?
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Re: Wikileaks guy arrested, Senator attempting retroactive law changing!
« Reply #258 on: December 09, 2010, 06:06:12 pm »

All of it. Why weren't they fired, why nothing of this was released until nearly three years later, even then it was unofficially released and the man responsible for bringing the truth has been put in jail for life.

Quote
It's a crime to expose war crime.

Still a whole generation of people are raging over Wikileaks for doing this.
Are they completely blind?
Are they sheep of the government? Do they have no sense of free thought?


All I'm thinking of right now is George Orwell's novel.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 06:10:14 pm by MiniMacker »
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Aqizzar

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Re: Wikileaks guy arrested, Senator attempting retroactive law changing!
« Reply #259 on: December 09, 2010, 06:10:25 pm »

All of it. Why weren't they fired, why wasn't this released, why the hell no one DID anything until nearly THREE YEARS LATER.

You could start looking for answers in the thread we already had about it.  Although you're unlikely to find anything you want to hear.  Please don't make me regret linking this by bumping it, okay?
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Realmfighter

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Re: Wikileaks guy arrested, Senator attempting retroactive law changing!
« Reply #260 on: December 09, 2010, 06:10:50 pm »

why wasn't this released
People are bastards, and they would have torn the military a new asshole if they got ahold of this.
Why weren't they fired
Firing people makes noise, which isn't a good thing when your trying to make people not notice you.
why the hell no one DID anything until nearly THREE YEARS LATER.
Because it already happened, if they did something they would only stunt there own efforts, efforts which are arguably saving lives (At least they believe this, making it a valid point, from there perspective) and its not like not reporting this will hurt anyone.
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Re: Wikileaks guy arrested, Senator attempting retroactive law changing!
« Reply #261 on: December 09, 2010, 06:12:07 pm »

Just want to state a fact here--civilian reporters often have armed escorts around that region for protection from bandits, muggers, etc.  It's decently likely that there were AK-47s in that group.
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Realmfighter

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Re: Wikileaks guy arrested, Senator attempting retroactive law changing!
« Reply #262 on: December 09, 2010, 06:15:27 pm »

Still a whole generation of people are raging over Wikileaks for doing this.
Are they completely blind?
Are they sheep of the government? Do they have no sense of free thought?
You want the government to have transparency?

The bad thing about transparent materials is they break easily.

THAT METAPHOR MAKES SENSE I GUESS.
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Askot Bokbondeler

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Re: Wikileaks guy arrested, Senator attempting retroactive law changing!
« Reply #263 on: December 09, 2010, 06:24:25 pm »

eh, the discussion has moved on a bit... still

But the whole point of being "Anonymous" is that you don't take credit for it, especially not outside of being anonymous, which is what you are right here.  If you're bragging about being "Anonymous", then you're not "Anonymous".

Anon isn't a group, though. "Group" implies formal structure, which Anonymous does not have.

And the reason Anonymous never uses "I" is because we represent the faceless mass - we are everyone, and no one.

to be fair, i don't think dragonshardz was bragging abut being anon, i think he was merely paraphrasing an Anonymous' moto to explain why an Anonymous writer never uses I, he just failed, or chose to fail for expressive reasons, to properly mark it as a quote.

Virex

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Re: Wikileaks guy arrested, Senator attempting retroactive law changing!
« Reply #264 on: December 09, 2010, 07:00:48 pm »

Civilian casualties are a local statistic. Taliban warriors are a threat no matter where you are. I know killing innocents is wrong, but they had a good reason to suspect the people they fired upon were Taliban (official data from HQ, which they presumed to be right, combined with visual conformation) and they did what they had to. I would've been more appalled if they let a bunch of terrorists go off to blow up a market square, a local school or god forbid the military airbase I live near to, because they might have been civilians.
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ed boy

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Re: Wikileaks guy arrested, Senator attempting retroactive law changing!
« Reply #265 on: December 09, 2010, 07:10:31 pm »

Also, keep in mind that "asked for permission to open fire" is not equivalent to "planned to open fire". For all I know, the normal procedure might be to ask for permission to open fire upon seeing anyone even slightly suspicious - after all, there is no harm in asking for permission to open fire and not going through once more information becomes available, but if they establish themselves as a threat nobody would want to wait until permission is given before opening fire.
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Aqizzar

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Re: Wikileaks guy arrested, Senator attempting retroactive law changing!
« Reply #266 on: December 09, 2010, 07:13:44 pm »

Civilian casualties are a local statistic. Taliban warriors are a threat no matter where you are. I know killing innocents is wrong, but they had a good reason to suspect the people they fired upon were Taliban (official data from HQ, which they presumed to be right, combined with visual conformation) and they did what they had to. I would've been more appalled if they let a bunch of terrorists go off to blow up a market square, a local school or god forbid the military airbase I live near to, because they might have been civilians.

First of all, try to keep the context straight.  The helicopter video was from Iraq, not Afghanistan.  So, not Taliban, but instead any of a huge grab-bag of local militants.  Judging by the line "no matter where you are", I'm going to assume you meant organized terrorists like al-Qaeda.  All things considered, if they're wandering around an area armed, they are a "local statistic", not a threat to anyone outside of the area.

I'm not talking about any kind of principles of strategies here, I'm talking about the specifics of the situation.
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Virex

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Re: Wikileaks guy arrested, Senator attempting retroactive law changing!
« Reply #267 on: December 09, 2010, 07:17:02 pm »

Wups, mind slip there.


But you do have to remember that terrorist groups are often tightly interwoven and really not that local. The same guys that patrol the Iraqi streets have trained in Jemen and fought in Somalia and will blow up innocent Israeli's in a few years time. Air liners aren't limited to the western world any more. These groups also often recruit and are supported by local militant groups, or coordinate their activities.


Sure, it might be that that specific guy walking that specific street will never set a foot outside of Iraq, but I'd hate to be the one telling the Israeli's "Sorry that the center of Jeruzalem got blown up by someone we didn't shoot. We thought they were civilians or at most local militia. But we can still have tea together, no?)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 07:20:11 pm by Virex »
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Mysteriousbluepuppet

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Re: Wikileaks guy arrested, Senator attempting retroactive law changing!
« Reply #268 on: December 09, 2010, 07:19:27 pm »

Civilian casualties are a local statistic. Taliban warriors are a threat no matter where you are. I know killing innocents is wrong, but they had a good reason to suspect the people they fired upon were Taliban (official data from HQ, which they presumed to be right, combined with visual conformation) and they did what they had to. I would've been more appalled if they let a bunch of terrorists go off to blow up a market square, a local school or god forbid the military airbase I live near to, because they might have been civilians.

Well then let's shoot everyone wiht a Ak47 , since clearly they are just itching to use it on poor, poor millitary helicopter. Funny thing really, to consider that anybody that cary a weapon is gonna use it. Off course, if this was in the US everyone in this video and their mother would be prosecuted. Double standard are sickening
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Virex

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Re: Wikileaks guy arrested, Senator attempting retroactive law changing!
« Reply #269 on: December 09, 2010, 07:21:56 pm »

Double standards? I'd happily support the police shooting anyone making threatening moves with a gun or knife or otherwise being a potential threat. It would solve a LOT of problems, not just in Iraq. When you've got mayors fleeing for their lives (Holland), 12 years olds massacring whole gangs on their own (Mexico), someone causing a bloodbath on a military base (US) and more of those "inconveniences" all over the world, I don't think it's right to let massacres waiting to happen walk free because you may just have the wrong guy.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 07:24:36 pm by Virex »
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