I've been busier than I expected, sorry. Here go my pending answers.
Zathras: I see your evidence. I can see your points generally; however, I agree with the premises but not the conclusion. I don't see us getting any farther than that.
This is a useless answer, and a scummy way to curtail further discussion. You don't even specify if that was about my pointing out your scumminess or Jokerman's. It only increases my suspicions of you. Questions for you:
1) With which of the premises do you agree? with which you don't? For those you do agree with, if you accept the premises but reject the conclusion it must mean that either my reasoning is incorrect, or there's more data I'm not considering. Kindly point out what I'm missing.
2) Do you still think Jokerman is town?
3) Please give me your impressions of MBP and Pandar.
1. Do you or do you not admit to contradicting yourself several times D1? "mmmmaybe a third party", "I'd bet on a third party", "the odds of an anti-town role are extremely low", so are there or aren't there?; "I never said anything about ignoring lurkers." and "I'm not even defending lurking!", yes you did, and yes you were.
1. I do.
Very well. Let the record state that you admit to lying here:[1][2] ("I didn't say/defend it!"), and that you did defend lurking, which you yourself call "detrimental to town."
Follow up question: Why would a town-aligned player defend a behaviour that is detrimental to town?
I wasn't. Defending. Lurking. Stop fucking ignoring what I'm saying, it's really getting to piss me the fuck off, you ass.
Oh, not this again. You said "I do" above, so you did agree to it. But enough. I know what you said ("just fucking ignore it", "only if you are
completely convinced all the active players are town", "nothing inherently scummy about it" and so on), so I'm done arguing the point with you. You did defend it, but I'm not interested in your opinion on the matter anymore.
2. You said your intention was to Vig-kill the lurkers. Leaving aside that you couldn't have NK'd them all, do you think killing the lurkers without knowing if they are town or scum is good for town? Don't you think you'd end up NK-ing townies that way? Wouldn't you want to at least ask them a couple of questions to better guess their alignment? Or is lurking a justifiable death sentence for town in your mind? Isn't challenging the lurkers to participate better for town than night killing them? That kind of indiscriminate bloodlust screams scum to me.
2. I didn't say anything about indiscriminately killing them all; I'm not an Exterminator. I also never said that I wouldn't target anyone else - I didn't mean to imply that I would only kill lurkers, simply that it was a prerogative that I have/had.
You said "if [lurking] got to be too much trouble this game I would just take them out myself"[1], and "lurkers would find themselves dead and the actual hunting would have more room to happen. That was my plan, anyway." [2]. I say you explicitly stated that your defense for defending lurkers was that you were planning to kill them, and didn't give a second thought as to what alignment the lurkers may have been. I didn't say you said "only", but how many nights do you think you'd have to try anyway? Your plan, as stated by you was "to get other town to hunt active people" so you could get the lurkers yourself. You weren't even proposing to ask them a single question or probe them a bit before shooting. No, your plan was "to take them out yourself", alignment be damned.
So I ask you again, as you didn't actually answer the question: Don't you think you'd end up NK-ing townies that way? Isn't challenging the lurkers to participate better for town than night killing them? But you not only didn't challenge them, but insisted that challenging was the wrong thing to do (unless you were completely convinced all the active players were town, that is).
Yes, I would likely have hit Town as well. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't have hit scum, and I would think that people would start to get the picture and not lurk after a specifically lurker-targeted NK.
So, you do admit on indiscriminate killing of lurkers without regards to their alignment. Hey, maybe they were scum (of a different team than yours), right? So who cares, shoot them all, wuba will sort them out.
This is a perfect storm of scummitude. Town would
never indiscriminately shoot without a solid suspicion; it only takes a few townie deaths for the game to be lost. This is the #1 reason I vote you and think others should as well.
4. Do you concede that I could have no knowledge of your alignment, given that I wasn't in the scum team? If you do, weren't then you lying when you said "on D1 there's only one faction that knows something the others don't. [referring to me being that faction]"?
4. I suppose that's true. However, my statement is not false, and at the time I had no way of knowing that you weren't what I suspected you to be - can you admit to that? It was enough reason (I thought) for me to take matters into my own hands.
Yes, your statement is false. You said "on D1 there's only one faction that knows something the others don't. [referring to me being that faction]", and at the time you said it you knew exactly what faction I was then; you even posted "well, there's that roleflip, so fuck you and you and you", so you saw the roleflip, and knew that I wasn't of the faction you said I was.
Since you "suppose that's true", let the record show that you lied here [1]. This is particularly important, because this is the paragraph where you justify your action:
In the post where you admit lying you were answering the question "What specifically made you feel confident enough to kill him?", and your answer was "[...]on D1 there's only one faction that knows something the others don't." You didn't, and don't, have an answer for "What specifically made you feel confident enough to kill him?" and had to lie to get away from the question.
Let me restate it more simply: "What specifically made you feel confident enough to kill him?" Nothing but pure, unadulterated, emotional rage at being outed, and a necessity to shut your attacker up. You had no reason, no evidence, no confidence behind your attack, and had I flipped town you would never have claimed. You cowardly shut up the voice attacking you, and hid, only coming out when you saw it was safe. When asked why you did it, you could only lie to seem grandiose. There was nothing else you could say.
To hammer the point home, let me answer your question: at the time I had no way of knowing that you weren't what I suspected you to be - can you admit to that?
Of course I can. At the time, you had no way of knowing if I was town or SK or cult or jester (you did know I wasn't in your scum team, but in the hypothetical you aren't scum, you couldn't know I wasn't there either). You had no evidence, and you still shot with the only purpose to silence your attacker, and damn the consequences. What's his alignment? I don't know! I don't care! Just get rid of him! This is exactly the tought process your question betrays, and it's not a townie one.
Follow up: You admit you had no way of knowing I wasn't town, so what specifically made you feel confident enough to kill me? Had I flipped town, would you have claimed?
You're right, it was just a ragekill. But when that's an ability you have, and you feel you need to use it, you do. I did, it wasn't wrong, you're trying to turn it into a scumtell. You're trying to turn killing the Serial Killer into a scumtell. And yes, if you had flipped town, I would have claimed. It would be better for town if I did.
a) Bullshit, you wouldn't have claimed it, and you know it. But never mind. b) It
is a scumtell. You shot indiscriminately, out of rage and OMGUS and self preservation. That you got lucky is immaterial, what's scummy is the thought process that led you to the kill.
Toaster: Jokerman has admitted to an irrational kill. You said earlier you bought his claim because a scum would rationally save his kill for LYLO. But he wasn't thinking, his shooting was based on emotion and cowardice, so your reason for buying it doesn't apply. Would you like to revise your position re: Joker's towniehood?
Jokerman, you didn't respond to this bit. I'll trim it so it's easier to read:
Didn't say you're scum. Said you're scummy. Zathras' assaults scummed you up quite a bit, and having the possibility for other anti-town roles, your name is not cleared. I'm not making any sort of new claims here, and I'll give hard evidence when I have it. Like I said, I'm choosing not to pursue you yet.
Basically what you're saying is that a highly anti-town role painted me to be scum, and that combined with the fact that there's a possibility of more anti-town roles, is enough to mark me as scummy in your eyes, despite the evidence to the contrary? Boy, that makes sense.
What, pray tell, evidence to the contrary?
Produce that evidence, or you are lying again, scum.But we all know there is no such evidence.
You also failed entirely to address or dispute these, so I'll assume you agree they are valid:
Summary
Jokerman did indeed lie about:
a) stating that he had evidence my previous role was scum;
b) stating that he had knowledge he didn't have, to make himself look better in the eyes of town;
c) stating I had knowledge I didn't have;
d) that he felt confident his daykill target would hit scum;
e) denying saying what he had indeed said.
Jokerman did admit to:
a) using his daykill without any evidence at all on his target's alignment, based only on self preservation, emotion, and gut feel; this is utterly scummy.
b) doing this only to shut up his attacker ("OMGUS? - it totally was!"); scummy.
c) defending a practice he considers detrimental to town; scummy.
d) intending to kill lurkers without regard to their alignment (though he may backtrack on this and admit to lying instead); super-scummy.
e) multiple contradictions; scummy.
f) placing an OMGUS vote, and then denying it was OMGUS, then admitting under pressure he had no basis for it; super-scummy.
Jokerman-EXE, you are a liar, a coward, and a scum.
How many lies does it take? Lynch all liars. How many scummy acts does it take? Lynch the scum.
To these we add your insistence on lying about the first point, your confirmation of intended anti-town behaviour, and your failure to produce the evidence you say exists.
You are scum.
As for the rest, briefly:
Pandarsenic - His plan seems like a trap, and seems too angry and irrational to have good intentions. I say probably scum, but not 100% sure.
Pandar: Question: have you formed an opinion on Jokerman
yet?Org - Useless. I've stopped even paying attention to him. I can't read him, and I'm OK if he dies. Or if not.
Ottofar - Less lurky than usual, and yet hasn't helped. Unsure.
Argembarger - Was quite lurky, and then came back with what seem to me to be empty arguments and lack of focus. Probably scum, possibly Pandar's helper.
Toaster - Lurky and noncommittal. Faulty thinking, reluctance to express opinions, noticeable defence of Joker. Scum, Joker's scumbuddy. Pretty certain. Should hang ASAP.
Archangel - Angry, mostly useless, lurky. Unsure.
MysteriousBluePuppet - Mostly useless; seems scummy, but hard to pinpoint. Suspicious.
IronyOwl - Seems townie enough so far, but I've been wrong before.
Jokerman-EXE - Liar, coward and scum. Must die.
NativeForeigner - Seems townish, but too jumpy. Maybe noobtells, or maybe a scum doing a good town impersonation but too nervous about it. Unsure, but doesn't need to die soon.
Nirur Torir - Seems townie and rational enough... but I've been wrong before. May also be only hope against Pandar's trap, so at least he shouldn't hang
today.
I don't know the composition of scum or factions. If we have one main scum team, it's probably three or four out of: Joker, Toaster, Pandar, Arg, MBP, Org. If there are two competing scums, then one is Joker&Toaster, while Pandar and maybe Arg, Native or Ottofar are in the other. Other than Org and Arch, I've not seen anyone overly jestery; if we have a survivor or cultist my hunch would be one of Ottofar, MBP or Nirur.
PS: Seeing the vote count, it's as I feared: confirming myself would require me to let my target go. And the difference is so small I'll have to go for one of the people who only have one vote. Oh well.
It's up to you guys to hang Jokerman or Toaster. Unvote, (and
unvote, unvote, unvote); vote
Pandar (
Pandar, Pandar, Pandar).
Author
Topic: BYOR5.5 - Day 9: Just Kidding. Game Over. (Read 130578 times)