Zathras: Answer me these: For your original vote power, was it a single vote that counted three times or three separate votes? Also, did your original role mention the PM at all? Did you get the new PM before the day ended, during the night, or at the start of D2?
I asked that very question, and wuba said it was
intended as a 3x vote for a single target, but if I voted for two people, I could send him a PM before the end of day letting him know if I wanted to split them and how. I didn't intend to do that, though. I'm not sure I understand your middle question; if you mean that Caligula knew about the revive, no, it was a surprise; the lack of a deadchat tipped me off that there was something else going on, but I didn't know what until I got my new role PM. For the third, it was after the lynch, but
soon after it, my guess is it was before night actions were sent and processed.
Zathras. Do you still have the three votes? Mind trying to split them?
Also, my survival was, I think, like a Christmas present from webadict.
a) no, I no longer have the three votes or any other power.
b) Heh. That is not suspicious
at all! Unless you're being humorous, in which case, I hadn't considered the Santa Wuba hypothesis; maybe he placed a plasma bomb under my tree that burned me to the bone? No, I think Ottofar's story is more scummy than he's letting on.
Zathras: Why is it that you alone are willing to trust that I'm townie enough to do my role-related action?
Well, you seemed townie enough to me D1, and your blocking claim matches Pandar's result claim, so it seems plausible. Also, I have little choice. People may or may not believe me, but unless I'm blocked tonight they will not chance it and lynch me, and I need to be alive to win, so it's in my best interests to ask claimed blockers to consider me as a target.
Also, we're waiting on the Jokerman reasoning.
Right. I've been putting it off because it's a long post and I've been busy elsewhere, but here goes. Questions for my other scum picks (Pandar and Ottofar) will follow after this.
We'll take the D1 arguments as read. Here's the summary:
[1], and my last to him, to which he
responded with bullets instead of arguments [2].
But let's look at the more recent stuff:
I'll just drop this here: I used to be a Vigilante, which is why I was so sure Zathras was scum.
This makes no sense. Why would a vig know who the scum is?
At first I didn't want to go after him because he felt like aggressive town, but as time went I started to realize that he didn't feel right and I knew I was onto something.
This is bullshit. He went from "I have decided on is that you don't feel like scum right now" to "For one thing, Zathras is scum." in the span of
24 hours, there's nothing gradual about it, and it was
clearly because he was fed up with my badgering him, not because he thought I was scum. Then he posted
once to try to defend himself, and seeing he failed, he shot me instead or replying to my response.
I gave up my ability to NK, however, in order to use my one-shot Daykill on Zathras.[...]The plan was pretty much to kill Zathras, but he was leading town towards killing a role that's very beneficial towards town, so I figured it was a better investment to give up my NK ability and save a scumhunter.
You got lucky. You wanted to
shut me up, not get rid of scum. It even worked for a little while. You
say that you had a beneficial-for-town ability, but you could just as easily be a scum with a 1-shot daykill. And
save a scumhunter? You? Puh-leeze. You had been a dead weight to Town since the game started, and made only perfunctory attempts after that.
At first I didn't want to go after him because he felt like aggressive town, but as time went I started to realize that he didn't feel right and I knew I was onto something.
Interesting, because this would seem to mean his attack on Pandar was what finally lead to your realization. Was that it? What specifically made you feel confident enough to kill him?
2. It wasn't his attack on Pandar that did it - I don't even recall the particulars of that attack. However, he was tunneling me heavily, and it seemed to me that he was seriously jumping the gun; he posted twice to rage at me for lurking when I posted saying I would be gone, then had two separate people come by to let you guys know. Seriously, no one gets that riled up D1 without knowing something, and on D1 there's only one faction that knows something the others don't.
This is utter bullshit. a) It
was surprisingly timely given my attack on Pandar (whom I haven't forgotten, as was endlessly scummy D1 too). I had proved I wasn't tunneling D1, and I explicitly said my attack on him was not for
lurking. Nor, I think, was I that riled up; if anyone lost composure, it was him. But the clincher: there's indeed only one faction that knows something others don't,
and I wasn't it. Scum knows who is scum and who is town, but an SK only knows himself. I had no way of knowing your alignment but your play, and it's in the SK's interests to also drop the main scum team - in fact, lynching a scum is a good way to get the town to leave you alone for a while. I knew you were scum
from your play, and it was in the SK's best interest to turn that into a lynch of scum.
Summary up to here:a) You say I had knowledge that I didn't and couldn't have. You lie.
b) You say
you had knowledge that you couldn't have. You lie again.
c) You followed your OMGUS vote with an OMGUS daykill with
the only intention to shut me up. Given the evidence you had, it was not in the best interest of town to do it... but it was in the best interest of
saving your ass. You happened to get lucky, and used that to try to coast through the rest of the day wearing the "scumhunter and saviour of town" mantle, badly.
Some other points:
My stance on lurkers is the same as it always has been, but I figured that if it got to be too much trouble this game I would just take them out myself - I tried to get other town to hunt active people, but that backfired on me.
That's a lot of targets this game. Do you really think ignoring and then NKing them is the most efficient way to combat lurking?
4. It was an attempt to get people to just fucking ignore it for at least one game day! Jesus Christ, it's so goddam frustrating - every single game, that's all people ever default to. I was hoping that we could make it through one game in which it wasn't a problem, because lurkers would find themselves dead and the actual hunting would have more room to happen. That was my plan, anyway.
So what's your plan
now? Do you insist that people should "just fucking ignore it"? Or it's OK to get them to post now even if we aren't "completely convinced everyone else is town"? You say you no longer can kill the lurkers, so do you plan to ignore them or challenge them?
You can't just make claims without any backing in this game; give some hard evidence of your own.
Sure you can. You can even daykill them. You did both, without giving a single
shred of evidence on me, except for your demonstrated lies.
This one is quite telling:
Didn't say you're scum. Said you're scummy. Zathras' assaults scummed you up quite a bit, and having the possibility for other anti-town roles, your name is not cleared. I'm not making any sort of new claims here, and I'll give hard evidence when I have it. Like I said, I'm choosing not to pursue you yet.
Basically what you're saying is that a highly anti-town role painted me to be scum, and that combined with the fact that there's a possibility of more anti-town roles, is enough to mark me as scummy in your eyes, despite the evidence to the contrary? Boy, that makes sense.
Boy, your argument makes no sense, and your sarcasm is on you. That "highly anti-town" role of which you speak was a
third party, so there's not only the
possibility, but the
certainty of more anti-town roles: the scum team. And you end it up with "despite evidence to the contrary"? what, pray tell, evidence to the contrary?
Produce that evidence, or you are lying again, scum.And of course, my previous SK alignment does not invalidate my arguments at all. Had I been part of the scum team, and known you were town, sure, but I wasn't, and didn't have any knowledge of your alignment beyond your actions, so my arguments are to be judged on their own merit. You don't get to dismiss them just because you got lucky. That's what a member of the scum team
would try to get away with, though.
He was challenged on this, and tried to wiggle thusly:
In a game with 13 players, you can bet on three scum, leaving ten. We've already identified one third-party, leave nine. If you account for a survivor, that's eight, which is just about perfect for town. So actually, the odds of an anti-town role are extremely low, as that would unbalance the game terribly. So now what?
This is called evidence.
Bullshit. The question is whether you are part of the scum team, for which you say there's "evidence to the contrary". Your "evidence" cites that there are likely three, but does
nothing to say you aren't one of them. I say you are. Incidentally, I also think there's decent chance for further anti-town roles like jester or cult that you are
conveniently ignoring once again like you did earlier in the game.
That's it for direct quotes. Please
Jokerman-EXE, answer the following direct questions:
1. Do you or do you not admit to contradicting yourself several times D1? "mmmmaybe a third party", "I'd bet on a third party", "the odds of an anti-town role are extremely low", so are there or aren't there?; "I never said anything about ignoring lurkers." and "I'm not even defending lurking!", yes you did, and yes you were.
2. You said your intention was to Vig-kill the lurkers. Leaving aside that you
couldn't have NK'd them all, do you think
killing the lurkers without knowing if they are town or scum is good for town? Don't you think you'd end up NK-ing townies that way? Wouldn't you want to at least ask them a couple of questions to better guess their alignment? Or is lurking a justifiable
death sentence for town in your mind? Isn't challenging the lurkers to participate
better for town than night killing them? That kind of indiscriminate bloodlust screams scum to me.
3. D1 is over. What will your policy on lurkers be for D2? If you don't follow through with it, should we consider you scummy?
4. Do you concede that I could have no knowledge of your alignment, given that I wasn't in the scum team? If you do, weren't then you lying when you said "on D1 there's only one faction that knows something the others don't. [referring to me being that faction]"?
5. You went from "you don't feel like scum" to "For one thing, Zathras is scum" in
one post, 24hours. Then posted
once more trying to defend yourself and failed, so you followed it up with a daykill. Is this correct? Please confirm. If it is correct, how is it not a) a blatant OMGUS; and b) an action explicitly taken to
shut up your attacker?
6. Did you
know I was scum when you killed me? If you didn't, aren't you lying here: "I used to be a Vigilante, which is why I was so sure Zathras was scum." Where you a vigilante with a daykill and a day-cop as well? No. I'm
sure it was only to shut me up, and you just got lucky. Your then dressing it up as "oh I was saving a scumhunter" is not only bullshit, it's also quite funny.
7. You never answered my questions
here, where I a) prove I wasn't tunneling; b) call you on your lies about me attacking you for lurking, which I didn't; and c) reiterate your contradictions. You never addressed my points, but continued to say I was tunneling and calling you a lurker. Please address these points, or admit that you were lying yet again when you accused me of those things before my comeback.
8. Preempting your useless complaints: you may say I'm tunneling
now but keep in mind that a) I'm asking you about your
prior statements before my revive; and b) you're not my only scumpick, I've not had a chance to post questions for them, and yours was a long post long coming, so them's the breaks. In any case, answer why you thought I was tunneling
then.That's it for now. More to come (on him and others) as time permits.
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Topic: BYOR5.5 - Day 9: Just Kidding. Game Over. (Read 133117 times)