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[Jokerman-EXE]

In a game with 13 players, you can bet on three scum, leaving ten. We've already identified one third-party, leave nine. If you account for a survivor, that's eight, which is just about perfect for town. So actually, the odds of an anti-town role are extremely low, as that would unbalance the game terribly. So now what?

Okay, why the fuck not. I didn't feel like going after you right after Zathras, but you're really just going after this.

The odds are still there, aren't they? You don't know what factions their are or just how many third-parties there are. You'd only have a clue if you happened to be part of one. So what's to say you're not one? I'm still waiting for evidence contrary to this, which you can't seem to provide. Instead, you decide to jump all over me because I'm not letting you off the hook right away like you had hoped. So now what?

Uhh. This?

In a game with 13 players, you can bet on three scum, leaving ten. We've already identified one third-party, leave nine. If you account for a survivor, that's eight, which is just about perfect for town. So actually, the odds of an anti-town role are extremely low, as that would unbalance the game terribly. So now what?

This is called evidence. Ask any player in the game what the balance should be. You're just bullshitting now. NativeForeigner. I'm not "jumping all over you for not letting me off the hook," I'm asking for solid reasoning that you came up with, and so far, there hasn't been any.

[NativeForeigner]

PPE2: 2PPE2furious - NF, how did Zathras' attacks "scum up" Jokerman? What exactly are you even accusing him of? Why aren't you pursuing... whatever it is?

During Zathras' interrogations, Jokerman contradicted himself several time and brought up several questionable characteristics. I'm not accusing him of anything, I was just pointing out that Zathras' flip does little to let him off the hook.

Didn't say you're scum. Said you're scummy. Zathras' assaults scummed you up quite a bit, and having the possibility for other anti-town roles, your name is not cleared. I'm not making any sort of new claims here, and I'll give hard evidence when I have it. Like I said, I'm choosing not to pursue you yet.

Basically what you're saying is that a highly anti-town role painted me to be scum, and that combined with the fact that there's a possibility of more anti-town roles, is enough to mark me as scummy in your eyes, despite the evidence to the contrary? Boy, that makes sense.

I'm sorry, what evidence is there to the contrary? I haven't seen anything sufficient. All I'm saying is that you're not off the hook, not only because of the possibility for multiple factions, but also because there's a chance (albeit small) that this was some sort of scum ploy to get at least one scum member a guaranteed "town" role. But you're making a damn big deal out of it, I mean really? Do you WANT people to think you're scum? Please, refute everything that has been said against you WITHOUT contradicting yourself.

In a game with 13 players, you can bet on three scum, leaving ten. We've already identified one third-party, leave nine. If you account for a survivor, that's eight, which is just about perfect for town. So actually, the odds of an anti-town role are extremely low, as that would unbalance the game terribly. So now what?

Okay, why the fuck not. I didn't feel like going after you right after Zathras, but you're really just going after this.

The odds are still there, aren't they? You don't know what factions their are or just how many third-parties there are. You'd only have a clue if you happened to be part of one. So what's to say you're not one? I'm still waiting for evidence contrary to this, which you can't seem to provide. Instead, you decide to jump all over me because I'm not letting you off the hook right away like you had hoped. So now what?

Blah blah, I don't want to scumhunt, blah blah, Jokerman can be scum, blah blah, I'm not going to attack him because I want everybody else to do that work for me, blah blah, I'm not even going to commit to a vote since I'm a newbscum.

Unvote, vote NativeForeigner. You've made the mistake every newbscum makes; you can't bring yourself to vote a player you know is town. I can't think of any other reason for a townie, newb, idiot, or other, to refuse to vote the player he/she thinks is the scummiest.

I'm sorry, when did I say I didn't want to scumhunt? Or that I wanted others to do the work for me? Never. Learn to read, bud. I'm not committing to a vote because I can't back it up yet. Trust me, I have no problem voting for a townie when I'm scum. Jokerman might not be the scummiest to me anymore, I'm still going through past posts to try to determine who is.

In a game with 13 players, you can bet on three scum, leaving ten. We've already identified one third-party, leave nine. If you account for a survivor, that's eight, which is just about perfect for town. So actually, the odds of an anti-town role are extremely low, as that would unbalance the game terribly. So now what?

Okay, why the fuck not. I didn't feel like going after you right after Zathras, but you're really just going after this.

The odds are still there, aren't they? You don't know what factions their are or just how many third-parties there are. You'd only have a clue if you happened to be part of one. So what's to say you're not one? I'm still waiting for evidence contrary to this, which you can't seem to provide. Instead, you decide to jump all over me because I'm not letting you off the hook right away like you had hoped. So now what?

Uhh. This?

In a game with 13 players, you can bet on three scum, leaving ten. We've already identified one third-party, leave nine. If you account for a survivor, that's eight, which is just about perfect for town. So actually, the odds of an anti-town role are extremely low, as that would unbalance the game terribly. So now what?

This is called evidence. Ask any player in the game what the balance should be. You're just bullshitting now. NativeForeigner. I'm not "jumping all over you for not letting me off the hook," I'm asking for solid reasoning that you came up with, and so far, there hasn't been any.

Sorry, what was that? I can't hear you over your bullshit. You're trying to slide by, the same thing you accused me of trying. I said evidence, not statistics. The chance is small, sure. There needs to be a balance, yeah. That does NOTHING to clear your name. What is there to prove you're not part of the informed minority? Am I the only one who thinks so? No, lost at this post. Not convinced I'm not the only one? Look at this one. "it does zero to clear Jokerman." Even Mr. Person's opinion didn't change (though it might have now). There's also IronyOwl.

Have I made my point yet? Are you going to jump all over them as well because they also think you're still scummy? Or are you just going to stop at me? In fact, why did you choose me to begin with? Was it because Toaster was already questioning me and you thought you'd be able to make me crack? Or did you think that, because I'm new, I wouldn't be able to defend myself efficiently against your inane outbursts?

You seem to be taking quite to offense to people still thinking you're scum, understandable, but the way you're approaching it is ridiculous. You can't seem clear your own name, so instead of trying, you try to make someone look scummier than you do.

[IronyOwl]

Spoiler: Toaster (click to show/hide)

If you have any questions left for me about him (or anything),  I'll be happy to answer them.

Both now and when they happened:

1. What do you think of Jokerman's initial claims that lurking is not detrimental or scummy?

2. What do you think of Jokerman's later claims that he was not defending lurking?

3. What do you think of Jokerman's claim that someone accused him of lurking?

4. What do you think of Jokerman's change from "mmmmmmmmmaybe a third party" to "I would bet on a third party?"

5. What do you think of Jokerman's claim that Zathras was ignoring his arguments?

6. Why did you miss Zathras' reasoning on Jokerman being cult?

Spoiler: MBP (click to show/hide)

Hello again IronyOwl. I am both angry and amused by your post. First up i read the the thread, and i'm hurt that you would say that i just charge on without reading everything. Thing is i don't always go back to read 15 pages of text just for your little eyes. Deal with it.

I don't care how much you think you've been reading the thread, if you miss the fact that I've been voting and questioning a player all game, and instead claim I jumped on him after the extension, you're not reading it enough to count.

Happy dance since I said that you had good chance of buddying scum, and that buddying is scummy. Zath got killed and flips scum. A good example of why buddying is a bad idea. Dunno if you knew or not, If you also flip scum i'll dance around my hat.

You still haven't explained how this works. As I noted earlier, it seems to be:

1. IronyOwl buddied Zathras once
2.
3. Zathras gets IronyOwl's vote
4.
5. IronyOwl is scum

We learned that we got an SK less. Feels liberating, but also show that your buddying was to be  detrimental. If he had not been killed, you would have continued trusting his opinion like you did ? Just saying, however strong a case he could have gotten on someone, you still need to do your own fucking work.

We've been over this. Which is to say, you've spouted this baseless bullshit before, I've called you on it, and you've ignored it.

Oh hey, you see, i did not remember that. Mostly since all i remember you doing form the start of the game was praising Zathbuddy then defending yourself when the shitstorm hit. Well, congratulation !!! There was actually some post complaining about Pandar when he said he would not be there. Did not see the same kind of hate to MrPerson, Argem, org etc etc especially since those only post a few sentences then get away without a damn reason.

There's that selective (ie scummy) memory again. Also more lies; Pandar never said he'd be not here.

But really, this is the best you've got? I haven't been going after all the lurkers?

Clearly, we don't see eye to eye on that one. Show it to me. Show me those embarassing question you got, something.  Right now it always come back to  : Zathras did it before, but if it was ME, i would have done it better, more agressively, whatever. Way to try and look important without doing anything remotely usefull. You actually got the gall to say that you dont need to investigate someone that had many scumtells since someone else did it already? That's pure grade AAA Bullshit.

I already did, but sure, let's explicitly list some of the more grievous ones out.

1. Your claim I haven't been scumhunting. Link or quote me being useless, and explain why it doesn't count as scumhunting.

2. All the times I buddied Zathras. Again, quotes and explanations.

3. How buddying Zathras leads to Zathras getting my vote, and why it matters if I'm also scum.

4. What information does Zathras' roleflip give us?

5. Point out all the times I have refused to scumhunt because Zathras was doing it.

Spoiler: Jokerman (click to show/hide)

1. Honestly, yes. Maybe that's a little vain of me, but I felt that I wasn't being as scummy as he was trying to make me seem (seeing as, y'know, I know I'm not scum?), and that he should have gotten what I was trying to say. Yes, I was a little off about it - I've been really busy, if you missed that. I'm just getting back into the game.

He had multiple quotes of you contradicting yourself. The only argument I ever saw against them (aside from further contradicting yourself) was the very blanket "you're ignoring my arguments" routine.

3. Uhh, yes. It's happened before, I think. If I'm quietly searching for something, it's probably easier to find than if a couple people are loudly stomping and shouting about it. That's what we like to call logical.

Did you really think encouraging them to be careless was worth getting the entire rest of the town to ignore them?

4. It was an attempt to get people to just fucking ignore it for at least one game day! Jesus Christ, it's so goddam frustrating - every single game, that's all people ever default to. I was hoping that we could make it through one game in which it wasn't a problem, because lurkers would find themselves dead and the actual hunting would have more room to happen. That was my plan, anyway.

We've got something like four lurkers this game. Night killing them all just isn't feasible.

And back to IronyOwl: If you think MBP is scum, why aren't you voting him? Is Pandar more scummy? And where do you think I fall, after all this? You've made it clear that you don't think I'm town. So who exactly do you suspect?

I'm voting Pandar to pressure him; I'm not voting MBP because I don't think there's any use to it. The Zath Incident has made me reconsider you, but ultimately you're looking scummy because of the more recent developments as well.

For instance, why did you wait so long to fess up to killing Zathras? You were confident he was scum, you had to have been on to daykill him, you posted before saying BOOYA, but you didn't take credit for it until later. Why?

In terms of who I suspect, damn near everyone.
-Jokerman was scummy before, and while the recent incident has given me pause, there's yet more scumminess in the present issues.
-Pandarsenic is starting to hunt, but has been utterly and unrepentantly useless previously.
-MBP is a tunneling liar. 'Nuff said.
-Toaster was tunneling on an extraordinarily precise wording issue, then has insisted on abstracting everything else out to "his opinion" or "his interpretation." He's also had some further weirdness lately.
-NativeForeigner seemed townie enough, then pulled this weird "the points against you hold but I'll hold off until something else comes along" bit. Huh?
-Org. I never seriously considered Jester until one of his posts, and he's been adamantly insistent on being lynched ever since. I'm genuinely and honestly at a loss for whether to lynch him or not.
-Ottofar. Orglike in that he posts nothing and when he does it's useless.

Mr.Person hasn't shown up in a while, but I wouldn't say I suspect him yet. Argembarger has seemed passive, I suppose, and certainly lurky regardless, but he had been not-fucking-up enough that I was ignoring him.

Pandar:

NativeForeigner, if you're so convinced Jokerman is scum, why are you waiting for something new to come from him? MAKE something come from him. Or better yet, don't be set on thinking he's scum if you don't have a reason to, and if you have a reason to, make effort to have him further demonstrate it to you and to others?

When I pointed this out to you, your response was to rant about how you'll be rereading and forming a suspicion later. How do you feel about that?

Hurm.

I have to pack bags today and tomorrow, and then I'll be free.
I'll try to post as I return.

COOL. YOU'VE SUCCEEDED IN DOING NOTHING AT ALL THROUGH TWO EXTENSIONS.

Hmmmmmmm.
I see.
nod.

I see.

Org, who do you think is scum? Why?

[NativeForeigner]

-NativeForeigner seemed townie enough, then pulled this weird "the points against you hold but I'll hold off until something else comes along" bit. Huh?

What I meant by that was I had nothing further to chase after Jokerman with, just what Zathras had. And I was hesitant to go after him with no new evidence. So I was just going to focus on newer material until he slipped up again, which it appears he's starting to do now.

[Toaster]

-NativeForeigner seemed townie enough, then pulled this weird "the points against you hold but I'll hold off until something else comes along" bit. Huh?

What I meant by that was I had nothing further to chase after Jokerman with, just what Zathras had. And I was hesitant to go after him with no new evidence. So I was just going to focus on newer material until he slipped up again, which it appears he's starting to do now.

And you're still not voting him?


Irony, I'm typing up something to you.

[Toaster]

Irony:

1.  It's within his meta.  I don't personally agree with them, but he almost always lurks away during RVS.  Lurking is certainly detrimental to the town, which by definition makes it scummy.

2.  Clearly not true:

Lurking isn't great as town, but I also don't see anything inherently scummy about it at all. And so what if you had waited a few more seconds? How is that lurking, or at all related?

3.  I'm assuming you're talking about Zathras when Jokerman said he was busy moving.  I'm willing to give Joker the benefit of the doubt that he was honestly unable to participate.  To answer more bluntly- it's true, because someone did accuse him of lurking.

4.  It's odd.  It *could* be poor wording (your quote's not exact), but it's something to keep in mind about him.

5/6.  You'll have to wait for these two-  something came up and I have to run.

[IronyOwl]

2.  Clearly not true:

Lurking isn't great as town, but I also don't see anything inherently scummy about it at all. And so what if you had waited a few more seconds? How is that lurking, or at all related?

Then what do you make of his claiming something that isn't true?

Also, what do you think of his later turnaround on the subject, specifically:

As such, I think it would be better to focus on pulling other players into the game, and we can revisit this argument D2, when lurking becomes a bigger thing and when it might make more sense to us. Does that sound reasonable?

[NativeForeigner]

-NativeForeigner seemed townie enough, then pulled this weird "the points against you hold but I'll hold off until something else comes along" bit. Huh?

What I meant by that was I had nothing further to chase after Jokerman with, just what Zathras had. And I was hesitant to go after him with no new evidence. So I was just going to focus on newer material until he slipped up again, which it appears he's starting to do now.

And you're still not voting him?

Good point, I guess I wanted to avoid being accused of an OMGUS since he decided to vote me first.

Vote Jokerman, for reasons previously stated.

3.  I'm assuming you're talking about Zathras when Jokerman said he was busy moving.  I'm willing to give Joker the benefit of the doubt that he was honestly unable to participate.  To answer more bluntly- it's true, because someone did accuse him of lurking.

I know this wasn't directed at me, but Jokerman was indeed busy moving back into his dorm during this period, so it shouldn't be part of the case at all.

[IronyOwl]

I know this wasn't directed at me, but Jokerman was indeed busy moving back into his dorm during this period, so it shouldn't be part of the case at all.

That was my bad; I thought he had accused someone of accusing him of lurking prior to that. There were some related statements at the time.

[webadict]

Hi everyone: Just a note that there's an Extension until Thursday.

Also, Archangel in troooouble now...

[Mr.Person]

I'm sorry, when did I say I didn't want to scumhunt? Or that I wanted others to do the work for me? Never. Learn to read, bud. I'm not committing to a vote because I can't back it up yet. Trust me, I have no problem voting for a townie when I'm scum. Jokerman might not be the scummiest to me anymore, I'm still going through past posts to try to determine who is.

You said you didn't want to scumhunt when you refused to scumhunt. Instead, you sat around twiddling your thumbs going "I think Jokerman is scum but I'm not going to vote him or even question him or anything!"

In a game with 13 players, you can bet on three scum, leaving ten. We've already identified one third-party, leave nine. If you account for a survivor, that's eight, which is just about perfect for town. So actually, the odds of an anti-town role are extremely low, as that would unbalance the game terribly. So now what?

Okay, why the fuck not. I didn't feel like going after you right after Zathras, but you're really just going after this.

The odds are still there, aren't they? You don't know what factions their are or just how many third-parties there are. You'd only have a clue if you happened to be part of one. So what's to say you're not one? I'm still waiting for evidence contrary to this, which you can't seem to provide. Instead, you decide to jump all over me because I'm not letting you off the hook right away like you had hoped. So now what?

Uhh. This?

In a game with 13 players, you can bet on three scum, leaving ten. We've already identified one third-party, leave nine. If you account for a survivor, that's eight, which is just about perfect for town. So actually, the odds of an anti-town role are extremely low, as that would unbalance the game terribly. So now what?

This is called evidence. Ask any player in the game what the balance should be. You're just bullshitting now. NativeForeigner. I'm not "jumping all over you for not letting me off the hook," I'm asking for solid reasoning that you came up with, and so far, there hasn't been any.

Sorry, what was that? I can't hear you over your bullshit. You're trying to slide by, the same thing you accused me of trying. I said evidence, not statistics. The chance is small, sure. There needs to be a balance, yeah. That does NOTHING to clear your name. What is there to prove you're not part of the informed minority? Am I the only one who thinks so? No, lost at this post. Not convinced I'm not the only one? Look at this one. "it does zero to clear Jokerman." Even Mr. Person's opinion didn't change (though it might have now). There's also IronyOwl.

Have I made my point yet? Are you going to jump all over them as well because they also think you're still scummy? Or are you just going to stop at me? In fact, why did you choose me to begin with? Was it because Toaster was already questioning me and you thought you'd be able to make me crack? Or did you think that, because I'm new, I wouldn't be able to defend myself efficiently against your inane outbursts?

You seem to be taking quite to offense to people still thinking you're scum, understandable, but the way you're approaching it is ridiculous. You can't seem clear your own name, so instead of trying, you try to make someone look scummier than you do.

You have an extremely fucked up view of how mafia works. Townies don't work to clear themselves, townie go and catch the scum. Townies try to get everyone to lynch the scum. Townies scumhunt no matter what. Scum such as yourself are the ones focused on their image. Townies couldn't give less of a shit about their image. All that matters is catching the scum. So why should town-Jokerman care at all that a bunch of people thought he was scum?

-NativeForeigner seemed townie enough, then pulled this weird "the points against you hold but I'll hold off until something else comes along" bit. Huh?

What I meant by that was I had nothing further to chase after Jokerman with, just what Zathras had. And I was hesitant to go after him with no new evidence. So I was just going to focus on newer material until he slipped up again, which it appears he's starting to do now.

And you're still not voting him?

Good point, I guess I wanted to avoid being accused of an OMGUS since he decided to vote me first.

Vote Jokerman, for reasons previously stated.

3.  I'm assuming you're talking about Zathras when Jokerman said he was busy moving.  I'm willing to give Joker the benefit of the doubt that he was honestly unable to participate.  To answer more bluntly- it's true, because someone did accuse him of lurking.

I know this wasn't directed at me, but Jokerman was indeed busy moving back into his dorm during this period, so it shouldn't be part of the case at all.

So why do you care how people will view your vote? That's awfully self-preservationist of you. In fact, you seem to be putting how others will view you over catching scum. Another tell-tale sign of scum. It's also a sign of a beginner, but hey, here you are saying you're not a beginner, so I'll take your word for it and just accept that you're scum.

[Argembarger]

Good lord, this thread is really really active. That's awesome but sheesh now I have to catch up on over 40 posts and try to avoid parroting people in the process.

Anyway, I promised, and therefore I deliver. Would've posted earlier today but I was werkin'.

Anyway, about the allegations of me being lurky and passive, well, I can't dispute that a bit, but I can try to do better from here on out. May have to bear with me here, as this game actually feels more complicated than Paranormal for some reason, haha. Sometimes all I see are massive, impenetrable walls of text and reasoning (moonlogic or otherwise). And being the lurky little jerk that I have been, I need to insert myself into the rapid stream-of-consciousness, preferably in a way that isn't horribly jarring and disorienting to myself and others. And get my head straight about these facts and accusations being slung around the room at insanely high velocities.

Soooo I think the best way to do that is to start clean and just analyze everyone asbestos I can. Mostly because I really have nothing already here to work with other than people telling me to quit lurking and post something useful.

So, alphabetical order for my reads on everyone. Because why not.

Archangel. I am extremely wary of this fellow. He never did answer the question I asked of him, and then when he promises content, he delivers a pretty incomplete attack against Pandarsenic and then disappears again... Nevermind the fact that Pandar's the only person who's really attacked him... This could be seen as quite the OMGUS, especially since, in my opinion, there really wasn't much bite to what he had to say. Suspicions against other people are totally unvoiced, and he has nothing to say of Nirur Torir's chainsawing buddy behavior... As time goes on, I suspect more and more that they are on a team.

Argembarger. A pretty cool and nice guy who wants to not lurk and hunt some scum instead of lurk.

IronyOwl. I have no real overt reason to suspect him of anything at this time. Really active, outspoken, etc. Doesn't come off as scummy, really, not to me.

Jokerman-EXE. As much as I want to avoid bringing Zath's death into this, I can't help but feel that you killed him because he had you pinned as scum and that made you uncomfortable. Finger of suspicion for now. Moooostly because I find it very strange that you just sort of say, very matter-of-factly, that you killed Zath, that you regret nothing, and then you leave that little tidbit there and move on to other things (which you may or may not be being attacked for by others at the moment). I don't entirely see how it's justified, I mean, you couldn't have known he was a SK, and any real reason you may have had to suspect him for being scum before his flip sounds OMGUSy to me. But, um, thanks for killing a serial killer? I guess?

I don't want to lay out the impression that I'm clinging to Zathras' tunnel against him mindlessly... just that that whole debacle is pretty irrevocably planted in my head, and asking me to totally ignore it is something I'm not prepared to do.

But now it looks like Joker and Native are OMGUSing each other >:-|

Mr. Person. Seems to be changing his vote a lot, which is totally fine, but of all the people who I feel neutrally about, I feel most neutrally about Mr. Person... if that makes any sense at all.

Uh, but, you aren't just letting Pandar off the hook that easily, are you man?

MysteriousBluePuppet. Clashing swords with IronyOwl quite a bit... Any suspicions besides IronyOwl and lurkers? Otherwise, fairly neutral read on him.

NativeForeigner. As I said in the Jokerman post, looks like Joker and Native are OMGUSing each other to me, which I would find hilarious, if they weren't focusing exclusively on each other. However, there seems to be some kind of odd thing going on between him and Toaster... A couple of times, it looks like Toaster is pushing Native, and getting him to attack Joker more. I could just be paranoid. And it's a pretty unsubstantial thing to attack someone for, but I'm gonna keep an eye on that. However,

Native, what's your read on Toaster?

Nirur Torir. I have to agree that he seems to be chainsawing/buddying Archangel pretty severely.

Come get some. You said "partially" in response to whether you're still attacking me for attacking Archangel. Why was Archangel worth chainsaw defending?

It's only a chainsaw if we're both scum. I am a townie.
As to why, it's because of you putting him at the top of your list for the wording on his question. We've been over this.

I mean, this applies to me because I suppose I attacked Archangel for the same reason Pandar did, but regardless, there's a big difference between defending someone on the grounds that someone is attacking them for a lousy reason, and defending someone by voting the person who is attacking them for a lousy reason, citing that lousy reason as proof that they are scum... As if scum are the only people capable of making slipshod arguments...? I mean, yeah, voting him for that isn't the greatest, but hey, if it gets the man talking, you know? All I can say is, you're trying to bridge a pretty wide gap here connecting Pandar's attack on Archangel to some degree of scummitude...

Oh and the definition of a chainsaw is "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum"... Can you really make the claim that what you are doing is not a chainsaw defense?

Org. Oh lord, Org. Buddy, pal, I will never support a policy lynch against you, but I'll totally support a lynch of you for not doing anything.

Still, I kind of like to think of Org like the Protoss in Starcraft. Takes a while to get them going, but they're really strong when they finally get established. Although, with people saying stuff like "Org will screw us over in LyLo" in other games, I'm not sure how much my opinion of Org holds up. There isn't much, really, to say about him at the moment, other than he's kind of being himself, and being pretty passive.

Promise you start doing work soon? Please? Because you're making me look dumb for trying to defend you..

Ottofar. Too inactive to get a read on.

Pandarsenic. I share his suspicions about Nurir and Archangel, but otherwise, pretty neutral.

Toaster. Hyperactive. Throwing plenty of stuff at everybody. No scumtells that I've seen. Based on activity and what I've read from him, he leans town at the moment for me.


So based on all of that, my top scumpicks at the moment are Archangel, Nirur and Joker.

Keeping the extension until Thursday in mind, will a vote on Org spur him into action? I really want to hear what you have to say about everything. And if it takes vote pressure to do so, that's fine by me.

And there you have it. A wall of text from yours truly, featuring almost nothing but original words typed by me just now.

[Argembarger]

Oh wait, something else I meant to bring up.

I noticed we have an even amount of players at the moment... doesn't that mean we're supposed to No Lynch today?

[Mr.Person]

Oh wait, something else I meant to bring up.

I noticed we have an even amount of players at the moment... doesn't that mean we're supposed to No Lynch today?

There's too many varied roles and whatnot to rely on there being 1 kill a night.

[NativeForeigner]

I'm sorry, when did I say I didn't want to scumhunt? Or that I wanted others to do the work for me? Never. Learn to read, bud. I'm not committing to a vote because I can't back it up yet. Trust me, I have no problem voting for a townie when I'm scum. Jokerman might not be the scummiest to me anymore, I'm still going through past posts to try to determine who is.

You said you didn't want to scumhunt when you refused to scumhunt. Instead, you sat around twiddling your thumbs going "I think Jokerman is scum but I'm not going to vote him or even question him or anything!"

I didn't refuse to scumhunt, I chose not to scumhunt Joker in favor of making an attempt to focus on somebody else. Joker, however, took my passive statement as an invitation to assault me.

In a game with 13 players, you can bet on three scum, leaving ten. We've already identified one third-party, leave nine. If you account for a survivor, that's eight, which is just about perfect for town. So actually, the odds of an anti-town role are extremely low, as that would unbalance the game terribly. So now what?

Okay, why the fuck not. I didn't feel like going after you right after Zathras, but you're really just going after this.

The odds are still there, aren't they? You don't know what factions their are or just how many third-parties there are. You'd only have a clue if you happened to be part of one. So what's to say you're not one? I'm still waiting for evidence contrary to this, which you can't seem to provide. Instead, you decide to jump all over me because I'm not letting you off the hook right away like you had hoped. So now what?

Uhh. This?

In a game with 13 players, you can bet on three scum, leaving ten. We've already identified one third-party, leave nine. If you account for a survivor, that's eight, which is just about perfect for town. So actually, the odds of an anti-town role are extremely low, as that would unbalance the game terribly. So now what?

This is called evidence. Ask any player in the game what the balance should be. You're just bullshitting now. NativeForeigner. I'm not "jumping all over you for not letting me off the hook," I'm asking for solid reasoning that you came up with, and so far, there hasn't been any.

Sorry, what was that? I can't hear you over your bullshit. You're trying to slide by, the same thing you accused me of trying. I said evidence, not statistics. The chance is small, sure. There needs to be a balance, yeah. That does NOTHING to clear your name. What is there to prove you're not part of the informed minority? Am I the only one who thinks so? No, lost at this post. Not convinced I'm not the only one? Look at this one. "it does zero to clear Jokerman." Even Mr. Person's opinion didn't change (though it might have now). There's also IronyOwl.

Have I made my point yet? Are you going to jump all over them as well because they also think you're still scummy? Or are you just going to stop at me? In fact, why did you choose me to begin with? Was it because Toaster was already questioning me and you thought you'd be able to make me crack? Or did you think that, because I'm new, I wouldn't be able to defend myself efficiently against your inane outbursts?

You seem to be taking quite to offense to people still thinking you're scum, understandable, but the way you're approaching it is ridiculous. You can't seem clear your own name, so instead of trying, you try to make someone look scummier than you do.

You have an extremely fucked up view of how mafia works. Townies don't work to clear themselves, townie go and catch the scum. Townies try to get everyone to lynch the scum. Townies scumhunt no matter what. Scum such as yourself are the ones focused on their image. Townies couldn't give less of a shit about their image. All that matters is catching the scum. So why should town-Jokerman care at all that a bunch of people thought he was scum?

And townies that have been scummed up and fail to clear themselves get lynched, which only hurts town. I'm not saying he shouldn't scumhunt while he's at it. Jokerman shouldn't care what people think of him, which is why I'm confused as to why he's going after me. The point of this was to point out to him that 1) Not only did others say the same, but I also wasn't the first one to claim say his name wasn't cleared and 2) illustrate how ridiculous and strange it is that he's going after only me and ignoring others claiming the same. Seems sketchy to me.

-NativeForeigner seemed townie enough, then pulled this weird "the points against you hold but I'll hold off until something else comes along" bit. Huh?

What I meant by that was I had nothing further to chase after Jokerman with, just what Zathras had. And I was hesitant to go after him with no new evidence. So I was just going to focus on newer material until he slipped up again, which it appears he's starting to do now.

And you're still not voting him?

Good point, I guess I wanted to avoid being accused of an OMGUS since he decided to vote me first.

Vote Jokerman, for reasons previously stated.

3.  I'm assuming you're talking about Zathras when Jokerman said he was busy moving.  I'm willing to give Joker the benefit of the doubt that he was honestly unable to participate.  To answer more bluntly- it's true, because someone did accuse him of lurking.

I know this wasn't directed at me, but Jokerman was indeed busy moving back into his dorm during this period, so it shouldn't be part of the case at all.

So why do you care how people will view your vote? That's awfully self-preservationist of you. In fact, you seem to be putting how others will view you over catching scum. Another tell-tale sign of scum. It's also a sign of a beginner, but hey, here you are saying you're not a beginner, so I'll take your word for it and just accept that you're scum.

Because I'm already being jumped on by you and Jokerman, and it would completely defeat the purpose if when I cast my vote everyone accused me of an OMGUS. I want to convince people that the person I'm voting for is scum, not that I'm reacting to their vote. I never said I wasn't a beginner, but I don't like playing the "it was a noob mistake, my bad." card to save myself, you don't get better by doing that.

NativeForeigner. As I said in the Jokerman post, looks like Joker and Native are OMGUSing each other to me, which I would find hilarious, if they weren't focusing exclusively on each other. However, there seems to be some kind of odd thing going on between him and Toaster... A couple of times, it looks like Toaster is pushing Native, and getting him to attack Joker more. I could just be paranoid. And it's a pretty unsubstantial thing to attack someone for, but I'm gonna keep an eye on that. However,

Native, what's your read on Toaster?

I didn't want to just focus exclusively on Joker -_-. Thanks for drawing me out with a question.

I can't say much on what might be going on with me and Toaster. It started right before Jokerman started focusing on me, so it could be that Toaster was trying to draw Joker's attention to me (rather than anyone else who had said the same thing). Then he stopped questioning me once Joker got on me. But that's pretty much just WIFOM.

As for my read on Toaster, I've been finding it kind of difficult to get a good read on him. He seems to be scumhunting and hasn't had any real slip-ups. He's been asking questions, staying fairly active, and acting like decent town. Also, he's not focusing solely on Pandar, which is a good thing, means he's less likely to fall into the trap where he ignores everybody else. In short, doesn't seem too scummy at all.