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[NativeForeigner]

NativeForeigner, I've seen you parroting Zath a lot after his death without actually presenting a case. All you've said is, "Nope, Zath's points are good." without adding to them. That's not how scumhunting works, and it's certainly not how it should work when the person you're parroting was the Serial Killer. You claim his points are valid, and yet I was arguing against them the entire time, when you were so sure he was town. He was ignoring every point I made and you rode right along with him. Why are you so complacent as to continue supporting the SK even after you know who he was?

I don't really see how mentioning that Zathras' points still hold equates to parroting. And it would be really nice if you would read the thread. I never said I was sure he was town, if you would care to take a look back. I even came to the conclusion that even if you were to flip scum, there would still be the chance that Zathras was scum. Why wouldn't the opposite still be true of you? In a game where there can be multiple scum parties and third-party players, one roleflip doesn't clear anyone of anything. He flipped scum, yes, but he had some pretty good going against you and I don't feel you've been fully cleared. I'm not the only one who thinks so, either. The only reason I'm not presenting a further case against you is because Zathras left what he had with pretty much no further to go and you've yet to present another reason to go after you. I wasn't ignoring every point you made, they just weren't sufficient with all the contradictions you gave us, as well as the OMGUS. Speaking of which, I don't think you've explained how you "knew for sure" that Zath was scum because of your vigilante role.

In conclusion, regardless of his roleflip, you still come off as scummy because of the possibility of more than one anti-town parties. But you don't come off as scummy enough to keep going after for the same damn thing Zathras was. I'm simply waiting for something new to come from you and, in the meantime, trying to get something from the other players.

[Jokerman-EXE]

So let me get this straight. You think I'm scum because of the fact that there could be another anti-town role, though you admit that it's not because of what I was being suspected for? So you're just going to sit and wait for something else to come along so you can proclaim I've been scummy all along?

That's poor play, Native. You can't just make claims without any backing in this game; give some hard evidence of your own.

And Argem, that's not really satisfactory. I'm hoping you'll actually post something useful tomorrow, at the latest. Same for Pandar and Nirur and Org.

[NativeForeigner]

So let me get this straight. You think I'm scum because of the fact that there could be another anti-town role, though you admit that it's not because of what I was being suspected for? So you're just going to sit and wait for something else to come along so you can proclaim I've been scummy all along?

That's poor play, Native. You can't just make claims without any backing in this game; give some hard evidence of your own.

Didn't say you're scum. Said you're scummy. Zathras' assaults scummed you up quite a bit, and having the possibility for other anti-town roles, your name is not cleared. I'm not making any sort of new claims here, and I'll give hard evidence when I have it. Like I said, I'm choosing not to pursue you yet.

[Pandarsenic]

Alright Jokerman, that actually satisfies me for now. Unvote, vote Pandarsenic.

Pand, why are you ignoring my otherwise valid question? You asked a question which Archangel responded to, but then go on to ignore Archangel. When I ask you about it, you just pretend that it's Archangel that's ignoring you. No sir, Archangel responded and you're just standing there refusing to continue the conversation. Why is that?

There's also the fact you keep jumping your suspicions around. Without you asking them any questions or even seeing them posting, you keep jumping players up and down several scuminess levels for seemingly no reason. For instance, why is Nirur scummy? You haven't said.

I didn't realize he'd responded to me. When he pointed it out, I headdesk'd, acknowledged that while his reason for doing it wasn't GOOD, it was still VALID, reminded him that he still needs to actually post, and moved on to Nirur Torir of the VROOM VROOM CHAINSAWWWWWWWW. I've found it suspicious that EVERYTHING HE DOES is ATTACKING ME WHENEVER I ATTACK IRONYOWL OR ARCHANGEL ever since he started doing it to the exclusion of anything else.

My suspicions have only changed in response to new information from whatever source it comes. If you can link to particular posts demonstrating this "jumpiness," I'd rather like to see them. The only one I can think of was when I doubleposted going after IronyOwl then shat a brick when I saw Archangel's post. Also, don't give me shit for "pretending" Archangel ignored me when I thought he had. If you didn't like it, maybe you should've cited the post where he replied to me.

To discredit your main example, I've considered Nirur Torir consistently scummy, and his primary offense (Attacking me for attacking Archangel and IronyOwl, all the time, forever) is easily observed - I simply continue attacking people who set him off. However, Archangel being off the hook and IronyOwl... well, I'll admit what I had on him was fairly insubstantial from the start so I don't have any solid shit to attack him on for the moment. I know, I know, "Find shit," but for now I'm going to deal with Nirur Torir. As "fun" as it's been watching his flailure for pretty much the entire day... enough.

NativeForeigner, if you're so convinced Jokerman is scum, why are you waiting for something new to come from him? MAKE something come from him. Or better yet, don't be set on thinking he's scum if you don't have a reason to, and if you have a reason to, make effort to have him further demonstrate it to you and to others?

*Looks at post*

WOW

I'M TALENTED

Nice OMGUS, but I'll drop this for the time being - you'd best have some content next post, though.

Unvote, vote Nirur Torir.

NT, are you still attacking me for when I attacked Archangel?

Partially.
1) You spent the day pre-extend active lurking. Your only accomplishments were an answer post, one non-RVS question, and stating what you think Org wanted to say.

2) Your first "real" action of the game was after the first extension was likely to go through, attacking IronyOwl for his buddying. You voted him without a question.

My greatest single suspicion is IronyOwl for his general grouping of him and Zathras, which I find odd. I feel like he's trying to have it be blatant for some reason.

In your own words, people likely to be blatant about it are jesters, scum with powerful death roles, and townies with anti-town living roles. A townie with an anti-town living role trying to die would be more blatant about trying to die. You weren't poising questions at him to try to see which he was, you just voted him as your most suspicious.

3) Your quick switch to an Archangel vote. He may have deflected your question, but you didn't do anything when you next posted, having posted to say that you only had two scumpicks.

4) When Mr.Person called you out on it, you said you had answered him, here. You had not.

5)

Unsure if Joe is being stupid, lazy, or scummy. Attempting to determine. I definitely won't say I'm leaning town on him so far, though. Forming an opinion on the content of his posts would require, well, content. :I

It's funny because there had been *plenty* of content on Jokerman. If you even were trying to read him, you weren't taking an active role, and weren't reading his old posts, as though you didn't care.

6) I feel like you're trying to deter my attacks by telling me I'm acting scummy. Guess what? That won't work against me after I know I have scum.

7) You tried to defend yourself from having to actually take a stance on Jokerman.

Lack of hunting: I'm going to get a goddamn response out of Archangel or one of us is going to die waiting for it. As for everyone else, it's not like I'm not watching and reading. I've formed suspicions, you're just saying I don't have them because you're one of them.

Having your vote on a lurker is the most pathetic reason for not scumhunting I've seen so far. I've been here, and you could have questioned me further at any time.

I'll be more helpful tomorrow, as in Day 2, not as in 12/21/10

Stop waiting on your powers and do stuff now.

Along those lines, Jokerman: I'm increasingly feeling like you're trying to hide in the shadows today so you can use your night ability.

1) Good thing I voted for the extension and became active once I was coherent then, eh?

2) I didn't say it made sense, just that it was what it felt like. If anything, the problem was it didn't make sense.

3) If someone asks me who's scum I'm going to say X people I'm reasonably confident in, not "Kinda him, sorta him, maybe him..."

4) Function of my not having realized Archangel had, in fact, replied to me, if you're referring to what I think you are.

5, 7 [same thing]) Said I was going to soon. Nobody really cared. Decided to put it off for later since it's not really making a difference for me at the moment.

6) Way to project. You've been, if anything, attempting to deter me from attacking Arch and Owl by attacking me for it. Your attacks had inherent scuminess - you were attacking ME to stop me from attacking. By contrast, I was attacking Archangel because his attack was bad.

Come get some. You said "partially" in response to whether you're still attacking me for attacking Archangel. Why was Archangel worth chainsaw defending?

PPE - Here you go Jokerman. Content all up in this bitch.
PPE2: 2PPE2furious - NF, how did Zathras' attacks "scum up" Jokerman? What exactly are you even accusing him of? Why aren't you pursuing... whatever it is?

[Jokerman-EXE]

PPE - Here you go Jokerman. Content all up in this bitch.
PPE2: 2PPE2furious - NF, how did Zathras' attacks "scum up" Jokerman? What exactly are you even accusing him of? Why aren't you pursuing... whatever it is?

So it is. Thank you.

And it's because he has nothing, he's just trying to slide by. You know, exactly what I said before?

Didn't say you're scum. Said you're scummy. Zathras' assaults scummed you up quite a bit, and having the possibility for other anti-town roles, your name is not cleared. I'm not making any sort of new claims here, and I'll give hard evidence when I have it. Like I said, I'm choosing not to pursue you yet.

Basically what you're saying is that a highly anti-town role painted me to be scum, and that combined with the fact that there's a possibility of more anti-town roles, is enough to mark me as scummy in your eyes, despite the evidence to the contrary? Boy, that makes sense.

In a game with 13 players, you can bet on three scum, leaving ten. We've already identified one third-party, leave nine. If you account for a survivor, that's eight, which is just about perfect for town. So actually, the odds of an anti-town role are extremely low, as that would unbalance the game terribly. So now what?

[Archangel]

Why Pandarsenic is Scum, Part One: (Up to him voting me)

Pandarsenic, who would you most want on your scumteam? Who would you most want to have a powerful role?

Mu. I don't have a scumteam. If I had one, I'd like to be cult again so I could recruit as I please.

I think it's merely flavor flavor.  I'm here, as far as I know.  No common theme- everyone chose their own costume!

Fair enough, unvote. But, although each one chose their own costume, do you think there is a common theme on how the costumes interact with each other, the fact that they were immaterial, or the whispering? is there another interesting thread at which to pull?

Argembarger, what's your take at the flavour? and what do you think would be a good strategy for this kind of game?

Mr.Person, similar questions: talk about flavour, and tell us about your thoughts about pro- and anti- town factions for this game, please?

Oh, and before I forget, Vengekill Pandarsenic!  8-P

YOU GO DIE IN A PIT

Person/Ottofar:  Noted.

Pandar:  Wake up!  Game's on!

Irony:  Do you think Jokerman's case is helped since he is neither going after lurkers nor lurking?

Jokerman:  Since we have many non-random posts to deal with, who do you think is acting scummy?

Shush you, I sleep when I please and my kitty demanded petting when I woke up.

So on a scale of 1 to Bullshit, who else thinks this shit going on between Jow/Owl/Zath is total nonsense?

The only thing of slight worth here is his assertion at the end of the post, claiming that the argument between Zathras, Jokerman and IronyOwl is nonsense. However, he did not provide any explanation, and phrased it like he were looking for approval. Both of which are scummy.

Zathras, how do YOU feel about IronyOwl grouping you and him and against Jokerman-EXE?

This is him latching onto Toaster's argument to make it look like he's participating.

Org is actually being active and interacting, which is a step up from his usual behavior. Also, he seems to be presenting a reasonable argument.

NT: "Meta."
Org: "Your use of Meta is bad, stop it."
NT: "Tell me why I should stop using Meta."
Org: "Tell me what the town gets out of you using Meta."

That's just the impression I got. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

Ottofar: I don't really remember anything of him - he's doing nothing to impact me (negative or otherwise) and that's bothering me 'cause lurkers are ewwwww (though I feel we should NOT start going after them exclusively at ANY point)

Native: He's doing things but I'm not sure what I think of him so far. However, his activity means that should be rectified soon enough.

Mr.Pers- WAIT HE'S IN THIS GAME?

D:

The important part of this is his defence of Org. Org was bothering Nirur for his use of meta, but what Nirur was doing was completely appropriate, asking Joker to prove that his strategy of lurking Day 1, for that is pretty much what it is, works.

Pandarsenic:

Mu. I don't have a scumteam. If I had one, I'd like to be cult again so I could recruit as I please.

Alright, but who would you most want with a powerful role?

So on a scale of 1 to Bullshit, who else thinks this shit going on between Jow/Owl/Zath is total nonsense?

So you don't think anything Jokerman's said is scummy? Do you think any of what me or Zath has said is scummy? What's your take on this nonsense situation?

Additionally, this seems to imply you were content to simply ignore them. Why?

At the time I was of the opinion that they were flailing at each other over semantics and other such bullshit. However, over time, they've solidified their arguments.

My greatest single suspicion is IronyOwl for his general grouping of him and Zathras, which I find odd. I feel like he's trying to have it be blatant for some reason.

Oh, and I'd most want myself as a powerful role. Duh.

Note how he votes Irony using the exact reason Toaster has hammering him for, without adding anything to the case, thus a blatant bandwagon.

I was going to respond to questions and bring my attack on Pandar as close to up-to-date as I could before I did this, but I don't have time for more. Web, I request a replacement. I'm feeling too apathetic to play. Sorry.

[Pandarsenic]

After seeing Org fuck up so much, I really WANT to believe he's able to be useful.

However, I'mma go with "reading too much into it" since Org is being useless now. If Nirur Torir's use of meta was good and appropriate, it would be easy for him to explain why, though.

I was not looking for approval on it being bullshit, I was merely wondering if those reading more carefully than I was shared my opinion on it.

Speaking of which: Called it, Zath was a SK.

Also TWO PEOPLE VOTE PERSON FOR SAME REASON IN RVS, FILM AT 11.

And in conclusion, Archangel must not be very confident he found scum if he's asking for a replacement.

I'mma go play some League of Legends since my mouse and internet are both working.

[NativeForeigner]

PPE2: 2PPE2furious - NF, how did Zathras' attacks "scum up" Jokerman? What exactly are you even accusing him of? Why aren't you pursuing... whatever it is?

During Zathras' interrogations, Jokerman contradicted himself several time and brought up several questionable characteristics. I'm not accusing him of anything, I was just pointing out that Zathras' flip does little to let him off the hook.

Didn't say you're scum. Said you're scummy. Zathras' assaults scummed you up quite a bit, and having the possibility for other anti-town roles, your name is not cleared. I'm not making any sort of new claims here, and I'll give hard evidence when I have it. Like I said, I'm choosing not to pursue you yet.

Basically what you're saying is that a highly anti-town role painted me to be scum, and that combined with the fact that there's a possibility of more anti-town roles, is enough to mark me as scummy in your eyes, despite the evidence to the contrary? Boy, that makes sense.

I'm sorry, what evidence is there to the contrary? I haven't seen anything sufficient. All I'm saying is that you're not off the hook, not only because of the possibility for multiple factions, but also because there's a chance (albeit small) that this was some sort of scum ploy to get at least one scum member a guaranteed "town" role. But you're making a damn big deal out of it, I mean really? Do you WANT people to think you're scum? Please, refute everything that has been said against you WITHOUT contradicting yourself.

In a game with 13 players, you can bet on three scum, leaving ten. We've already identified one third-party, leave nine. If you account for a survivor, that's eight, which is just about perfect for town. So actually, the odds of an anti-town role are extremely low, as that would unbalance the game terribly. So now what?

Okay, why the fuck not. I didn't feel like going after you right after Zathras, but you're really just going after this.

The odds are still there, aren't they? You don't know what factions their are or just how many third-parties there are. You'd only have a clue if you happened to be part of one. So what's to say you're not one? I'm still waiting for evidence contrary to this, which you can't seem to provide. Instead, you decide to jump all over me because I'm not letting you off the hook right away like you had hoped. So now what?

[Ottofar]

Hurm.

I have to pack bags today and tomorrow, and then I'll be free.
I'll try to post as I return.

[Toaster]

Pandarsenic:

Wow was I off about Zathras' alignment. Figures the person I considered second-most-townlike among us would be a Serial Killer.

Speaking of which: Called it, Zath was a SK.

Um, bullshit much?

And in conclusion, Archangel must not be very confident he found scum if he's asking for a replacement.

Someone attacking you asking for a replacement is very much so not points in your favor.

This whole post smacks of smoke and mirrors designed to get people to stop paying attention to you.  Congratulations, all you did was get my attention.


Argembarger:  Waiting, still.  Ditto for you Ottofar.

[Pandarsenic]

Pandarsenic:

Wow was I off about Zathras' alignment. Figures the person I considered second-most-townlike among us would be a Serial Killer.

Speaking of which: Called it, Zath was a SK.

Um, bullshit much?

And in conclusion, Archangel must not be very confident he found scum if he's asking for a replacement.

Someone attacking you asking for a replacement is very much so not points in your favor.

This whole post smacks of smoke and mirrors designed to get people to stop paying attention to you.  Congratulations, all you did was get my attention.

I called that something was wrong, but was totally incorrect about Zathras' alignment. Syntactic ambiguity regarding what "it" and how they were related. Sorry.

The bolded part is utter word soup, but I'm trying to make sense of it. Anyway. It's not like Archangel's replacement request is the crux of my argument. He's also wrong about the many and varied things I replied to elsewhere. But after such a halfhearted post by him, then "Ehh let's replace," I highly doubt he's in any way sure I'm scum.

Also, he's defending Nirur Torir and has quite suddenly (and not at all coincidentally) become suspicious to me again.

Archangel/Nirur Torir: Why are you two in bed with each other, exactly?

And re smoke and mirrors: No, not really. If I was trying not to be seen I'd be activelurking or just plain lurking. Frankly, in spite of our token poking, it's working for Ottofar and (other than my focus dragging him here) was working for Archangel.

[Nirur Torir]

8) Come get some. You said "partially" in response to whether you're still attacking me for attacking Archangel. Why was Archangel worth chainsaw defending?

It's only a chainsaw if we're both scum. I am a townie.
As to why, it's because of you putting him at the top of your list for the wording on his question. We've been over this.

Nirur Torir: You haven't posted since I responded to you. I'm curious to know your thoughts. What's your list of suspicions?

I'm starting to get a bit worn down from the long day, and haven't much changed my suspicions from this post.
Recent events have convinced me that Pandarsenic needs a lynch today more then you. I'll review my opinion of your scumminess day 2.

Archangel/Nirur Torir: Why are you two in bed with each other, exactly?

See above.
As for him, I'm guessing it was either carelessness if he's a townie, or a last act to frame me/make sure I down with his replacement if he gets lynched.

[Nirur Torir]

Also, I'm going to request another degree of extension. Tonight or tomorrow morning I'm going to review all of Joe's posts, particular the early ones I haven't given a look at post-OMGUS.

Incidentally, what did you discover about Jokerman during the re-read we extended so you could get?

I didn't realize he'd responded to me. When he pointed it out, I headdesk'd, acknowledged that while his reason for doing it wasn't GOOD, it was still VALID, reminded him that he still needs to actually post, and moved on to Nirur Torir of the VROOM VROOM CHAINSAWWWWWWWW. I've found it suspicious that EVERYTHING HE DOES is ATTACKING ME WHENEVER I ATTACK IRONYOWL OR ARCHANGEL ever since he started doing it to the exclusion of anything else.

... You mean to tell me that you didn't notice it when I quoted it at you ... ?

[Mr.Person]

PPE2: 2PPE2furious - NF, how did Zathras' attacks "scum up" Jokerman? What exactly are you even accusing him of? Why aren't you pursuing... whatever it is?

During Zathras' interrogations, Jokerman contradicted himself several time and brought up several questionable characteristics. I'm not accusing him of anything, I was just pointing out that Zathras' flip does little to let him off the hook.

Didn't say you're scum. Said you're scummy. Zathras' assaults scummed you up quite a bit, and having the possibility for other anti-town roles, your name is not cleared. I'm not making any sort of new claims here, and I'll give hard evidence when I have it. Like I said, I'm choosing not to pursue you yet.

Basically what you're saying is that a highly anti-town role painted me to be scum, and that combined with the fact that there's a possibility of more anti-town roles, is enough to mark me as scummy in your eyes, despite the evidence to the contrary? Boy, that makes sense.

I'm sorry, what evidence is there to the contrary? I haven't seen anything sufficient. All I'm saying is that you're not off the hook, not only because of the possibility for multiple factions, but also because there's a chance (albeit small) that this was some sort of scum ploy to get at least one scum member a guaranteed "town" role. But you're making a damn big deal out of it, I mean really? Do you WANT people to think you're scum? Please, refute everything that has been said against you WITHOUT contradicting yourself.

In a game with 13 players, you can bet on three scum, leaving ten. We've already identified one third-party, leave nine. If you account for a survivor, that's eight, which is just about perfect for town. So actually, the odds of an anti-town role are extremely low, as that would unbalance the game terribly. So now what?

Okay, why the fuck not. I didn't feel like going after you right after Zathras, but you're really just going after this.

The odds are still there, aren't they? You don't know what factions their are or just how many third-parties there are. You'd only have a clue if you happened to be part of one. So what's to say you're not one? I'm still waiting for evidence contrary to this, which you can't seem to provide. Instead, you decide to jump all over me because I'm not letting you off the hook right away like you had hoped. So now what?

Blah blah, I don't want to scumhunt, blah blah, Jokerman can be scum, blah blah, I'm not going to attack him because I want everybody else to do that work for me, blah blah, I'm not even going to commit to a vote since I'm a newbscum.

Unvote, vote NativeForeigner. You've made the mistake every newbscum makes; you can't bring yourself to vote a player you know is town. I can't think of any other reason for a townie, newb, idiot, or other, to refuse to vote the player he/she thinks is the scummiest.

Alright Jokerman, that actually satisfies me for now. Unvote, vote Pandarsenic.

Pand, why are you ignoring my otherwise valid question? You asked a question which Archangel responded to, but then go on to ignore Archangel. When I ask you about it, you just pretend that it's Archangel that's ignoring you. No sir, Archangel responded and you're just standing there refusing to continue the conversation. Why is that?

There's also the fact you keep jumping your suspicions around. Without you asking them any questions or even seeing them posting, you keep jumping players up and down several scuminess levels for seemingly no reason. For instance, why is Nirur scummy? You haven't said.

I didn't realize he'd responded to me. When he pointed it out, I headdesk'd, acknowledged that while his reason for doing it wasn't GOOD, it was still VALID, reminded him that he still needs to actually post, and moved on to Nirur Torir of the VROOM VROOM CHAINSAWWWWWWWW. I've found it suspicious that EVERYTHING HE DOES is ATTACKING ME WHENEVER I ATTACK IRONYOWL OR ARCHANGEL ever since he started doing it to the exclusion of anything else.

My suspicions have only changed in response to new information from whatever source it comes. If you can link to particular posts demonstrating this "jumpiness," I'd rather like to see them. The only one I can think of was when I doubleposted going after IronyOwl then shat a brick when I saw Archangel's post. Also, don't give me shit for "pretending" Archangel ignored me when I thought he had. If you didn't like it, maybe you should've cited the post where he replied to me.

To discredit your main example, I've considered Nirur Torir consistently scummy, and his primary offense (Attacking me for attacking Archangel and IronyOwl, all the time, forever) is easily observed - I simply continue attacking people who set him off. However, Archangel being off the hook and IronyOwl... well, I'll admit what I had on him was fairly insubstantial from the start so I don't have any solid shit to attack him on for the moment. I know, I know, "Find shit," but for now I'm going to deal with Nirur Torir. As "fun" as it's been watching his flailure for pretty much the entire day... enough.

There, was that first paragraph so hard? I have to ask why you felt the need to deflect onto Nirur Torir, however.

I never said you were jumpy, I'm merely saying you change your votes a lot. My suspicion is that you're flailing around trying to find a vote the town will latch onto and lynch. I only say this since that's what I do when I'm scum, and based on my experiences, we play pretty similarly. You're also posting a lot with "Player X sure did do something scummy" and never coming back to vote Player X, asking Player X any questions, or even saying Player X is scum when asked.

You can do both. You can question IronyOwl AND vote Nirur at the same time. Did you ever consider that option?

[Org]

After seeing Org fuck up so much, I really WANT to believe he's able to be useful.

However, I'mma go with "reading too much into it" since Org is being useless now. If Nirur Torir's use of meta was good and appropriate, it would be easy for him to explain why, though.

I was not looking for approval on it being bullshit, I was merely wondering if those reading more carefully than I was shared my opinion on it.

Speaking of which: Called it, Zath was a SK.

Also TWO PEOPLE VOTE PERSON FOR SAME REASON IN RVS, FILM AT 11.

And in conclusion, Archangel must not be very confident he found scum if he's asking for a replacement.

I'mma go play some League of Legends since my mouse and internet are both working.

Hmmmmmmm.
I see.
nod.