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[Pandarsenic]

Sticking to Archangel for now.

Org, you're only suspicious of me because I was supporting you while you were being good and now you're not being good and I don't think you're acting townlike any more.

IronyOwl, now that I'm awake again (I have a strange definition of morning), I'm going to form an opinion on Jokerman by rereading his posts. Like. I. Said. Lrn2read

So, you've basically admitted to active-lurking

No.

and then are going to go back and actually read his fucking posts to figure him out. HMMMM, WHAT DOES THIS IMPLY ABOUT WHAT YOU WERE DOING PREVIOUSLY? JACK SHIT? IS IT JACK SHIT?

I concluded at length that Zathras had a valid point that I had a duty as town to go back and reread Jokerman's posts and work with what there is to form an opinion. Since his SK roleflip, you know what changed about that? Nothing.

You're fucking impossible to please. I decide that fine, I guess the right thing to do would be to reread, and what do you do? You vote me. If not for Archangel, WHOM I AM VOTING FOR REASONS I'VE STATED QUITE CLEARLY AND HE HASN'T POSTED A DAMN THING ABOUT SINCE, I would be voting... well, Nirur Torir. But after him, you.

Four days ago, I had just gotten back home after the end of finals and a 9-hour train ride. It took me some time to get my head back in the game and be coherent.

Also, Jokerman's OMGUS may or may not be scummy, but you have to keep in mind that it was accurate. I won't speak for myself on how much that says about his alignment, save for that he was right about Zathras.l

[Org]

I herped.

[IronyOwl]

IronyOwl, now that I'm awake again (I have a strange definition of morning), I'm going to form an opinion on Jokerman by rereading his posts. Like. I. Said. Lrn2read

So, you've basically admitted to active-lurking

No.

Then what have you been doing? It's not asking questions and it's not reading responses, and it's not lurking, so what is it?

You're fucking impossible to please. I decide that fine, I guess the right thing to do would be to reread, and what do you do? You vote me. If not for Archangel, WHOM I AM VOTING FOR REASONS I'VE STATED QUITE CLEARLY AND HE HASN'T POSTED A DAMN THING ABOUT SINCE, I would be voting... well, Nirur Torir. But after him, you.

Four days ago, I had just gotten back home after the end of finals and a 9-hour train ride. It took me some time to get my head back in the game and be coherent.

You weren't doing anything at all until after the first extension. I'm not voting you for voting Archangel, I'm voting you for having nothing better than "buddying," "asking to restate," and "defending asking to restate" well after the day was supposed to be over, and hardly doing anything at all to get anything. Yes, Archangel needs to show his face. Yes, you're justified in voting him until he bothers to grace us with his presence. No, voting a lurker isn't excuse for doing no hunting and having no suspicions.

Also, Jokerman's OMGUS may or may not be scummy, but you have to keep in mind that it was accurate. I won't speak for myself on how much that says about his alignment, save for that he was right about Zathras.l

It wasn't accurate, though. He OMGUS'd him for "being jumpy" and "ignoring his arguments," neither of which was true. It happened to hit scum, but that doesn't mean it was correct reasoning.

I herped.

ORG.

Hi.

You're going to be useful and active and find scum, or WE WILL LYNCH YOU.

Thanks.

[Org]

Eh. Wait til later.

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

First up, Yay's are had for the death of a dictator. Secondly, let's try not to finish this day in WIFOM hell.

Since all vote are resetted. Let's hunt

IronyOwl : Could do a little happy dance and start shouting told you so, but i'm a class act so i won't. . Still, the roleflip brings up so much new information. Zath had a marvelous control vote, and he could have easily turned a vote around. What turned the fastest was you, to. Why the sudden vote change to Pandar ? Jokerman was miraculously salvaged by Zath scumflip? You said yourself thtat the reasoning was sound, but the only reason i see in your post to vote Pandar is that he does not have an opinion on Joker. While you quote the part where he say that he will reread the thread to make a good one. thats ridculous in so many extent. Where are your votes on Ottofar, Org, Argem, hell, even me for not having comprehnsive and annoted opinions on Joker? Or maybe Zath recent FoS-sing of Pandar add an impact on you. All you ever did until no is wait for people to post then latch on and ride the train. That's what a parasite do. What did you actually contribute to the town scumhunting ? What nugget of insight did you discover ? Show me that you actually have done any work so far.

Argemburger, Ottofar, Archengel need to actually do something someday soon or be replaced. Have not FoSsed Archengel since it really looks to me that he give up on the game. I'd be happy to be wrong in that case tho.

Org and Mr. Person i'm wary off, since they seem to be there quite often, but never to do anything actually usefull. Org is not any kind of surprise, but i remember Person as a good player and we need all the insight we can get.

[Toaster]

Dang, I go away for the weekend and all sorts of interesting stuff happens!


Archangel:

Toaster and Puppet, please restate you cases against IronyOwl.

Are you that lazy as to be unable to read the thread?  Are you even paying attention?  The fact that you haven't posted since a quick follow up to this post pretty much answers those questions.  I'll play your game, though:

He started out by buddying Zathras and built on it by grouping him and Zath together against Joker needlessly.  Keep reading-  Irony is up next.


IronyOwl:

Like I said, I only brought attention to it because of the initial occurrence.  If it hadn't happened the first time, I wouldn't have looked twice at the second one.

So you admit to tunneling, then. There's nothing scummy or noteworthy about them, it's just that you've already called me scum and therefore figure you can get away with adding them to the pile.

Absolutely not.  I'm presenting what I see against you.  Don't use plural either- I said one instance was weaker.  The first and third are still firm.

There is a connection- you're lumping all three of us together, and creating the false dilemma that if Jokerman's not scummy, none of us are.

The only connection is that you three are going back and forth with each other.  That way is asking for a summary opinion of the situation.  Your notion of a false dilemma there is nonsense.

The only connection in the prior one was that both of us were going after the same person. Of course it's nonsense, but that's the argument you're making.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here, so I'll just restate my problem with your initial statement.  You asked first about Jokerman's scummitude.  Then you asked about you and Zath together.  The non-scummy way to have done that would be to ask one blanket question about the whole situation.

Apples and oranges.  You didn't mention something you felt was scummy about someone you were already in the process of attacking.  I didn't mention vague suspicions I had of other people because they weren't strong enough on their own to merit bringing them out by themselves.  Since someone prompted me for them, I obliged. The only reason Joker got any extra attention there is because he is the one who asked.

I've stated something like four times now that I wanted to point out one thing, but not step on Zathras' toes by going after him for the exact same reasons. There's no chance you haven't noticed this explanation, so what about it seems scummy/false to you? And why didn't you address that directly instead of bringing up something that's already been explained?

My problem is this: if it wasn't worth adding to your argument, why mention it at all?

This still doesn't explain why the precise wording of my statements is the key to my scumminess, while you're just going with a "general feeling" about MBP's. A general feeling that ignores the actual meaning of those particular words, I might add.

Actual meaning?  I'm going on my interpretation of them, and what that is is right there in the quote.

But the interpretation isn't what the words actually mean; if I say "You and MBP are scum" you can certainly interpret that to mean "One of Toaster and MBP is scum," and that might even be what I meant, but that's not what those words mean in that context.

You're still not addressing why my precise wording is so relevant, but with MBP you just sort of gloss it over into "my interpretation."

I read into you and see scum.  I read into him and don't get anything definite; hence why I asked him what he planned to do next.  He didn't directly answer, but since he laid back into you I can guess as to what that answer was.

More vague feelings about MBP.

It's vague because I don't have any strong opinions of MBP.   I do have something for him now, but it's about his most recent post- see later for it.

Your wording was important because of the grouping.   There's no place in his words for such grouping, so asking me about them isn't going to get you anything specific.

I deny the defending charge; just because I think you're scum doesn't mean I think he isn't.  I'm not looking for teams here- I'm looking at individuals, and right now, you stick out like a sore thumb.  What do you want from me- to stop voting you and vote him instead?  I'm not going to base my vote off other people's arguments when I have solid suspicions of my own.

Fascinating.

You "deny the defender charge," then point out that me being scum doesn't mean Jokerman isn't; but that was never the point. The point was, at every opportunity to lightly defend Jokerman, you have. I never even mentioned myself in that accusation, other than to mention tunneling me was your other great hobby. Where did anyone say anything about teams?

You then go off onto some sort of "what do you want from me" tangent, complete with the most defensive line I have ever seen: "I'm not going to base my vote off other people's arguments when I have solid suspicions of my own." You're trying to justify voting me instead of Jokerman, despite maintaining that I'm obvscum and Jokerman is merely suspicious. Why feel the need to justify yourself beyond he's scum and he's not? It's because you know Jokerman's going to roleflip soon, isn't it?

I think you just cracked, Toaster. You saw all that up there and realized you'd been defending Jokerman a little too much, and panicked a bit.

No one did- I brought them up.  The reason I said it was to emphasize that I'm taking everyone's case at this point on its on points, and less on "If X is scum then Y is/isn't!"

You've been drawing a connection between us this whole time, so I made comment on that.  I've been getting "You should be paying attention to Jokerman instead of me" out of you, which admittedly is a reasonable argument for you to be making based on your view on him.


Ottofar:  I took notes since my last post so I could get a better read on the situation.  Here's the entirety of my notes on you:

Otto:  Useless post

I know you know Toaster's #1 Scumtell, so let's hear your suspicions with reasoning, please.


Org:  You're not much better right now.


MBP:

Still, the roleflip brings up so much new information. Zath had a marvelous control vote, and he could have easily turned a vote around. What turned the fastest was you, to. Why the sudden vote change to Pandar ? Jokerman was miraculously salvaged by Zath scumflip?

Error:  Irony voted Pandar *before* Zath died.  You're not paying attention well enough.


Argembarger:

Wait, what the hell just happened?

You have one post since Friday, and you blow it on this?  Who do you plan to vote now?  Why?


NativeForeigner:

NativeForeigner: What's your stance regarding Zathras, IronyOwl, Toaster, and MBP?

Zathras, if he is right about Joker being scum, is almost certainly town. However, should Jokerman happen to flip town, Zathras could very well be scum.

I feel the whole matter about Irony's slight buddying was way overblown. Sure, it's worth noting, Zathras is, if town, proving to be a powerful player, so he could be scum trying to make buddies with an effective scumhunter, or he could be town trying to keep safe by trying to make buddies with an effective scumhunter. Should Joker flip Scum, IronyOwl would be next on my list of suspects.

Toaster doesn't seem scummy to me, but I'm not ruling him out, especially for the IronyOwl incident.

MBP doesn't seem excessively scummy either, but it looks like he could fall victim to a bandwagon soon. However, he also participated in the IronyOwl incident, so I'll be keeping an eye on him.

This is a nice analysis that completely fails to be committal about anything.  We want your opinions *now*, not if so-and-so is scum.

Wouldn't you consider that scum suicide? Zathras has been on Joker from the start and was the first to bring up any suspicion towards Joker, that seems like it would be a pretty stupid move if they were a scumteam.

Well, Zathras seems to be a pretty aggressive scumhunter, so you could very well be trying to avoid getting in his sights. The reason you would be next on my list of suspects if Joker should flip scum is because you could have been trying to distance yourself from Jokerman by siding with Zathras.

See, here's the problem. You figure Zathras wouldn't bus his scumbuddy because it'd be suicide, but I might because Zathras is aggressive. Why?

This would be tunneling, not bussing. And I'm not saying you're bussing, just distancing (hypothetically). It wouldn't make sense for anyone to be bussing this early in the game, it could be a fatal mistake to do so.

Hold it.  You'd say it'd be tunnelling... why?  The only way I see your meaning is that you're saying Joker is town, not scum.  How do you know that?

[NativeForeigner]

NativeForeigner:

NativeForeigner: What's your stance regarding Zathras, IronyOwl, Toaster, and MBP?

Zathras, if he is right about Joker being scum, is almost certainly town. However, should Jokerman happen to flip town, Zathras could very well be scum.

I feel the whole matter about Irony's slight buddying was way overblown. Sure, it's worth noting, Zathras is, if town, proving to be a powerful player, so he could be scum trying to make buddies with an effective scumhunter, or he could be town trying to keep safe by trying to make buddies with an effective scumhunter. Should Joker flip Scum, IronyOwl would be next on my list of suspects.

Toaster doesn't seem scummy to me, but I'm not ruling him out, especially for the IronyOwl incident.

MBP doesn't seem excessively scummy either, but it looks like he could fall victim to a bandwagon soon. However, he also participated in the IronyOwl incident, so I'll be keeping an eye on him.

This is a nice analysis that completely fails to be committal about anything.  We want your opinions *now*, not if so-and-so is scum.

I gave my opinions pre-Zathras lynch and they haven't changed much.

Of the active players, Jokerman is the scummiest-looking player right now despite Zathras' roleflip because of the still-valid points that Zathras brought up.

Other than that, I'm still trying to unravel things, Org, Argem, Otto, and Mr. Person haven't been active enough for me to form a solid opinion on (though my vote was on Org before Zathras got killed due to his utter uselessness so far), the rest have been kind of cloudy. No one's been giving up any major tells and accusing people while only being able to back it up with what seem like weak tells. It's difficult for me to fully commit to anyone being scum because it's proving difficult to tell (at  least to me) at this point.

Wouldn't you consider that scum suicide? Zathras has been on Joker from the start and was the first to bring up any suspicion towards Joker, that seems like it would be a pretty stupid move if they were a scumteam.

Well, Zathras seems to be a pretty aggressive scumhunter, so you could very well be trying to avoid getting in his sights. The reason you would be next on my list of suspects if Joker should flip scum is because you could have been trying to distance yourself from Jokerman by siding with Zathras.

See, here's the problem. You figure Zathras wouldn't bus his scumbuddy because it'd be suicide, but I might because Zathras is aggressive. Why?

This would be tunneling, not bussing. And I'm not saying you're bussing, just distancing (hypothetically). It wouldn't make sense for anyone to be bussing this early in the game, it could be a fatal mistake to do so.

Hold it.  You'd say it'd be tunnelling... why?  The only way I see your meaning is that you're saying Joker is town, not scum.  How do you know that?
[/quote]

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, could you clarify?
It would be tunnelling because Zathras was the first one after Joker and he never let go. I don't see what Joker being town would have to do with it.

Toaster, what do you think of Zathras' roleflip? Do you think it clears Jokerman's name or do you think Zathras' points still hold?

Org, when do you plan on being even remotely helpful?

Pandar, would you please answer my previous question?

[Pandarsenic]

Whoops, sorry NF.

If I had a daykill I'd have used it on Archangel or Nirur Torir, most likely. However, any speculation on the daykill being related to me is just WIFOM.

Owlface:
I am reading posts. I just didn't go back to read the ones before I recovered coherency and began posting. Skimming is meh for opinion formation.

Toaster appears to agree with me that Archangel's "reason" for voting is bullshit. Do you find it suspicious from him? Why or why not?

Lack of hunting: I'm going to get a goddamn response out of Archangel or one of us is going to die waiting for it. As for everyone else, it's not like I'm not watching and reading. I've formed suspicions, you're just saying I don't have them because you're one of them.

ORG!

Orgface!

Wait until later why? When are you going to be useful? Why can't you be here now? How long do you expect us to wait? We've already extended once and I'm not seeing support for my second extension vote. >:I

[Mr.Person]

So skimming is bad now, Pand?

[Pandarsenic]

I won't say it's GOOD, but it's also what I do most of the time. :I

[Archangel]

Don't have time for more than this because of procrastination.

Unvote, vote Pandarsenic. Extend. I'll explain my vote and answer the questions posed to me tomorrow, however I damn well did say why I voted MBP immediately after Pandar voted me, you blind fuckwits! Look at my last post!

[IronyOwl]

*sigh*

Extension. Actual responses coming later, but still.

[Pandarsenic]

*Looks at post*

WOW

I'M TALENTED

Nice OMGUS, but I'll drop this for the time being - you'd best have some content next post, though.

Unvote, vote Nirur Torir.

NT, are you still attacking me for when I attacked Archangel?

[Org]

I'll be more helpful tomorrow, as in Day 2, not as in 12/21/10

[Pandarsenic]

Unacceptable. Be helpful now.