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[Toaster]

Zath:  I see.  I'm just curious why most of your questions so far had pertained to it.

[Argembarger]

Argembarger, what's your take at the flavour? and what do you think would be a good strategy for this kind of game?

Hopy shit my opinion is sought

To be honest, the flavor for this game, to me, seems unrelated to the mechanics and such we'll have to work with. It just kinda seems like experimental narration flavor for fun. It should be entertaining but I can't see it having any bearing on what we actually do or how we play.

And my thoughts on BYOR strategy? Since it's such a role-heavy game, and the roles are so unpredictable, I can't really say much for certain other than that this game will likely be won or lost through roles alone... and I expect more than one 3rd party role. I'm going to be cautious until I have some idea what kind of roles are floating around, personally. I'm also probably going to keep a notepad handy.

Org, how do you feel about the hate, and getting lynched or nightkilled early all the time? Are the proverbial haters just going to hate?
Jokerman-EXE, do you feel that this random question and voting stage will bring tangible results?
Ottofar, how should lurkers be dealt with?

[Jokerman-EXE]

No.

[Zathras]

Zathras: Given that it's BYOR, I think it's safe to assume we have a Survivor, scum and town (obviously), and mmmmmmaybe a third-party like an Exterminator-type thing (Arsonist or whatever), but I'd be hesitant to include that last.

Really? 13 people byor, webadict as mod, and you think there's only town+standard scum (and maybe a survivor)? I don't buy it. Going back several of web's games/byors: cults, jesters, a number of sks/aliens, and other odd roles abound. Do you really think it's just "survivor, scum and town, and mmmmmmaybe a third party"? It seems more likely to me that you are trying to avert our eyes from the multiple possibilities. What makes you think there's not a cult here like the Pony cult on BYOR4 or the Webadict cult on BYOR5? Could it be that you don't want us to think about it?

If you're completely convinced that all the active players are town, then I can see going after lurkers.

Completely convinced? Wouldn't that need a roleflip (if you're town)? Do you need to wait that long before you go after lurkers? If you have a dozen players, and you've heard of ten, four of which are townie enough, do you excelusively go after the other six active ones, or bring the lurking couple in to account for themselves? Is it a waste of time to call for them? Do you need to be completely convinced the ten active people are town before you do your best to bring the two lurkers in? really?

Do you think lurking is OK as town?

[Zathras]

[PPE: How 'bout now?]... should have waited 10 seconds. It'd have been awesome.

[Ottofar]

Argem, lynched if there are no better candidates.

MBP, what colour is my house?

[NativeForeigner]

No.

Why not?

[Jokerman-EXE]

Holy God, Zathras, why are you so jumpy on this shit? I'm goddam exhausted, I didn't realize I was on trial when you asked me a question.

There are probably multiple third parties. I'd be willing to bet on that. But given Web's recent bastard-streak, I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't. Basing all of your observations on previous games can be as dangerous as not taking any of them into account.

By "completely convinced," I'm making a point that you really shouldn't dedicate all of your attention to lurkers. Yes, lurking is detrimental to town, and in your example, I would do as you suggested. However, I think that lurkers are less of a priority in the long run; if they're scum, they're not doing a great job of messing with town, meaning they can be routed out easier later, and if they're town, then oh well. Town won't lose a good scumhunter if a scumhunter doesn't waste their time going after lurkers who aren't going to say anything anyway.

Lurking isn't great as town, but I also don't see anything inherently scummy about it at all. And so what if you had waited a few more seconds? How is that lurking, or at all related?

Native: It's a BYOR. If anything, it means that RVS is more useless; with all the infinite possibilities for roles, unless someone actually gives their role, the RVS is just a way to get the game rolling. The RVS itself isn't what interests me; I like to start playing once people start to get serious and post things with content (for example, the argument I'm having with Zathras). So, in response to the question that was asked, no, I don't see anything useful coming from RVS. I would also add that some of us are already past that stage.

[NativeForeigner]

Native: It's a BYOR. If anything, it means that RVS is more useless; with all the infinite possibilities for roles, unless someone actually gives their role, the RVS is just a way to get the game rolling. The RVS itself isn't what interests me; I like to start playing once people start to get serious and post things with content (for example, the argument I'm having with Zathras). So, in response to the question that was asked, no, I don't see anything useful coming from RVS. I would also add that some of us are already past that stage.

But don't you think that the RVS is useful for applying pressure to people and getting tells out of them? As well as leading into the later stages of the game. If you're inactive during the RVS, it can be seen as trying to avoid attention and thus somewhat scummy later game. This being a BYOR shouldn't have an impact on the effectiveness of the RVS.
I don't see this discussion having a huge impact on this game, however, so let's move on.

Zathras: Why do you consider someone's policy on lurking an important aspect of this game?

[Zathras]

Holy God, Zathras, why are you so jumpy on this shit? I'm goddam exhausted, I didn't realize I was on trial when you asked me a question.

Exhausted? At 11:00pm? Kid, I'm older, and I'm still here. Keep up. You are always on trial in mafia.

There are probably multiple third parties. I'd be willing to bet on that.

I want this to be on record as a contradiction of your previous:

I think it's safe to assume we have a Survivor, scum and town (obviously), and mmmmmmaybe a third-party like an Exterminator-type thing (Arsonist or whatever), but I'd be hesitant to include that last.

By "completely convinced," I'm making a point that you really shouldn't dedicate all of your attention to lurkers. Yes, lurking is detrimental to town, and in your example, I would do as you suggested.

That's not what you said. You said that you should ignore the lurkers until "you're completely convinced that all the active players are town". Sure, don't dedicate all your attention to lurkers, but maybe some of it? Like maybe some attention to the possibility of some cultist or jester role?


For the record:

Lurking isn't great as town, but I also don't see anything inherently scummy about it at all.

Wow. Nothing inherently scummy about it?! a) Lurking is a great strategy for scum. Don't be here, answer no questions, drop no tells. This is amply documented. It's Town's job to deny them that strategy. b) Before people say I'm always after lurkers: I'm not, I'm after those who defend them; they are protecting their main strategy. Joker isn't lurking, he's just saying that lurking is OK... "Sure, it hurts town, but they'll be caught later." Bah, it's the same folks, lurking just as much, so why shouldn't they hang sooner rather than later? Or is he right?

Native: It's a BYOR. If anything, it means that RVS is more useless; with all the infinite possibilities for roles, unless someone actually gives their role, the RVS is just a way to get the game rolling. The RVS itself isn't what interests me; I like to start playing once people start to get serious and post things with content (for example, the argument I'm having with Zathras). So, in response to the question that was asked, no, I don't see anything useful coming from RVS. I would also add that some of us are already past that stage.

This is a disingenuous response. What interests you is what comes after it, so do it. If we are already past that stage is because the stage existed, so don't diss it, and participate in it, you bum. But we're past it, aren't we? So address my earlier points, you scum.

[Jokerman-EXE]

1. I never said anything about ignoring lurkers. I said that there are better ways to spend your time. Do you have a response to that? Because if not, I'm not interested in what you have to say. You're dancing around the topic - do you think it's a better investment of your time to go after lurkers (and, as you say, lurker defenders), or scumhunting?

2. I'm not even defending lurking! I'm presenting counterpoints to your arguments; I don't care what your reasoning is for lynching someone, as long as you actually have a reason that stands up to argument.

3. So you're saying that anything scum can do to win is scummy? By your own reasoning, playing frequently and skillfully is an obvious scum tactic. Why, so is playing poorly, because you might be expecting that! By God, the WIFOM keeps stacking. See the danger in your argument? Lurking is not a scummy act, because it's not always intentional or being used as a tactic.

4. You don't really get it at all. You're interested in your life, right? Well, maybe you should have participated in your own birth. RVS is a joke, and there's no reason to be a part of it; people are going to throw votes around and ask inane questions whether or not I'm there. And, if you actually knew where my statement about RVS came from, you might change your tune. I originally stated that I would be there, and if a question was asked of me I would answer it. And it's also been shown that as soon as the game gets rolling, I'm ready to go.

I also find it rather interesting that you're talking about targeting lurkers...yet you and I have the most posts thus far. Oh, the delicious irony. While I have you, what are your other suspicions on people? Or is it just me?

[NativeForeigner]

4. You don't really get it at all. You're interested in your life, right? Well, maybe you should have participated in your own birth. RVS is a joke, and there's no reason to be a part of it; people are going to throw votes around and ask inane questions whether or not I'm there. And, if you actually knew where my statement about RVS came from, you might change your tune. I originally stated that I would be there, and if a question was asked of me I would answer it. And it's also been shown that as soon as the game gets rolling, I'm ready to go.

Joker, think of your view of RVS as this. If everyone shared it, the game would get nowhere.

MBP, what colour is my house?

You REALLY couldn't think of a better question to ask than this?

[Zathras]

1. I never said anything about ignoring lurkers. I said that there are better ways to spend your time. Do you have a response to that?

Yes, you did. You said: "If you're completely convinced that all the active players are town, then I can see going after lurkers."[1] If you're town (and in a BYOR, even if you're not), you're never completely convinced the active players are town, therefore, you should ignore lurkers. I'm not making this shit up, this is what you said.

You're dancing around the topic - do you think it's a better investment of your time to go after lurkers (and, as you say, lurker defenders), or scumhunting?

They are equally good. That's my point. You need to do both. If you forget the hunting to go for lurkers you're just as misguided as forgetting the lurkers to go hunting. Both need to happen. Your statement that lurkers can be left "until later" is giving them a free pass; telling town to go hunt for scum while ignoring the lurkers (unless you're completely convinced everyone is town), is you telling people to ignore scum using lurking as a strategy.

2. I'm not even defending lurking!

Yes, you are. Or how do you read this: "Lurking isn't great as town, but I also don't see anything inherently scummy about it at all."[2] Isn't that saying that lurking is essentially OK?

3. So you're saying that anything scum can do to win is scummy? By your own reasoning, playing frequently and skillfully is an obvious scum tactic.

No, I'm not, and your strawman is your problem.  I speak only of your earlier statements, never invoke "anything they can do", "playing frequently" or any other made up bullshit you want to bring up.

4. You don't really get it at all. You're interested in your life, right? Well, maybe you should have participated in your own birth.

You utterly lost me here.

RVS is a joke, and there's no reason to be a part of it; people are going to throw votes around and ask inane questions whether or not I'm there. And, if you actually knew where my statement about RVS came from, you might change your tune. I originally stated that I would be there, and if a question was asked of me I would answer it. And it's also been shown that as soon as the game gets rolling, I'm ready to go.

In your own words, RVS is over, and we're full-throttle scumhunting. Your refusal to participate in RVS is scummy on its own, but even scummier is your saying that lurking is OK (yes, you did, see above). You a) actively refused to consider a cultist faction until called up on it; b) think town lurking is not scummy; c) think RVS is useless, even if it brought up the first interesting conversation of the game; and d) have failed to do anything useful for town whatsoever.  You are scum. If pressed for details, I'd guess of the cultist kind.

I also find it rather interesting that you're talking about targeting lurkers...yet you and I have the most posts thus far. Oh, the delicious irony. While I have you, what are your other suspicions on people? Or is it just me?

We've never been talking about "targeting" lurkers. That's one more time you putting words in other people's mouths. I've talked about how scummy are those who think lurking is not scummy, and allow scum the tactic of lurking. Like, say, you. You're not lurking, and I never said you were (in fact, I pointed out earlier you weren't). The problem is your saying that it's OK, and that we shouldn't care; that we shoud just let them lurk, we'll catch them later... Those are the words of a scum screening for their non-present scumbuddies. I will post a lurkertracker soon, and by process of elimination find out who it is you are screening for.

[Archangel]

Archangel:  Did you remember to wear undergarments?  Also, tell me two people here you'd want to be on a scum team with.

I did.
As for the serious question, I would want Zathras, because he is fun and a very capable player, and someone expendable, like Native Foreigner or Nirur Torir.

Also, Org, where are you? You've been online since the game started and there have been questions directed aimed at you, but you haven't posted at all. It's not like you.

[IronyOwl]

While I'm at it, IronyOwl:  Which two people here do you think would make the best scum duo?  Why?

At the moment I'm leaning towards me n Zathras. I consider us both good players of the detail-aware variety. I'm actually not sure I've ever seen Zathras' scum game, but if it's essentially his town game (as I strive for myself) I think we'd be very, very good at annihilating weak players and going head-to-head with any strong ones who suspected us.

Of course, I'm currently in fuck yeah Zathras mode for his brutal dissection of Jokerman, so that could be coloring my opinion. Zath n Pandar might be pretty good for scumbuddies that rage a bit at each other, meaning if either falls the other looks good.

Since it's such a role-heavy game, and the roles are so unpredictable, I can't really say much for certain other than that this game will likely be won or lost through roles alone...

NO. BAD Argembarger. You scumhunt. You always scumhunt. No matter how powerful or numerous power roles are, scumhunting is essential. It tells us things powers can't, whether because there's too many targets, scum had a roleblock/redirect, or you died before letting everyone know the terrible truth.

Plus, it's free. Not scumhunting (or scumhunting less, on the notion that your powers will do the work for you) is in some ways less sensible than not using your powers on the opposite reasoning.

I think that the RV phase is a stupid waste and I'll participate when it's time to participate. In some games, like this one, that happens pretty damn quick; I seem to recall that A/Z/D took a while to really get rolling. I think that lynching all lurkers is a stupid policy - always have, always will. There are better things you can do with your time, like actually hunt for scum instead of going after someone you know won't defend themselves. If you're completely convinced that all the active players are town, then I can see going after lurkers.

This is scummy as all hell. You have no interest in getting things moving, and think going after people who are too quiet is a waste of time.

You're trying to create a lurkerscum's paradise, Jokerman-EXE. I don't like the sound of that one bit.