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[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

Ill leave it your call Toaster, i would not mind more time, but at the same i doubt there are much we have not discussed yet.

[Zathras]

And if Joker flips town?
If he flips scum, I'll claim fully in my first post tomorrow, since I can see I would almost certainly get lynched in that case.

If he flips town, then I would obviously have to reevaluate, so I can't say yet. But I'm pretty sure he won't.

PPE:  Errr... two day extension?  I hope I didn't cause that.

Hmmm... Yeah. That was a surprise. I'd even say a bad idea, given how traffic has slowed down considerably the last couple of days. I think resolving the Joker question and Pandar's plan once and for all would have been a better use of our time. But Wuba is as Wuba does, so we can talk some more.


PPE: Yes, shorten. It's better for the game. I'll withdraw it if people are against it, but I'd rather we move forward.

[Toaster]

Shorten it is then.

[IronyOwl]

SecondThird the shorten.

I do have a question for Toaster, though:

What makes you so sure Jokerman is town? You've explained that you consider his numerous "scumtells" to not really be such (though not why you don't), but you've just said you're convinced that he's town. Yet, I don't think you've once mentioned what makes you think he's town as opposed to just not-obviously-scum, aside from that one bit about his daykill not making sense for scum (which I heavily dispute, of course).

[Toaster]

Fair question, with a weak answer.  Besides the daykill usage, all I can give you is a gut feeling.  I've read over him, and I just can't get my head around him being scummy.  He just doesn't feel wrong to me.

[Zathras]

Web: how many shortens are needed? Had we known an extension request was outstanding, one of us would just have opposed it in those last posts. Oh well.

In the mean time:

Zathras:  The premises are your points on Jokerman.  They (generally) have some merit, but I am still pretty damn firm in my belief that he is town.  The difference is in the interpretation of events: I see his acts as less scummy than you do, and see his general behavior as a whole as more townlike than you do.  WRT his use of his kill being irrational, I do not buy it as a scumtell at all.

Please address them point by point: for each of the below, do you think it is a scum tell or not?

Jokerman did indeed lie about:
a) stating that he had evidence my previous role was scum;
b) stating that he had knowledge he didn't have, to make himself look better in the eyes of town;
c) stating I had knowledge I didn't have;
d) that he felt confident his daykill target would hit scum;
e) denying saying what he had indeed said.

Jokerman did admit to:
a) using his daykill without any evidence at all on his target's alignment, based only on self preservation, emotion, and gut feel; this is utterly scummy.
b) doing this only to shut up his attacker ("OMGUS? - it totally was!"); scummy.
c) defending a practice he considers detrimental to town; scummy.
d) intending to kill lurkers without regard to their alignment (though he may backtrack on this and admit to lying instead); super-scummy.
e) multiple contradictions; scummy.
f) placing an OMGUS vote, and then denying it was OMGUS, then admitting under pressure he had no basis for it; super-scummy.

(Plus his statement of how there's "evidence to the contrary" that he's scum).

Also, you say you now agree that his kill was irrational, but you earlier had said you thought he was town because the right strategy for a scum daykill was to wait for lylo. But his kill was not strategic, it was irrational, so it's a moot argument. So, what makes you think he's town then? This was the only point you cited for believing his claim.

How about his plan to kill lurkers, even if he happened to hit some townies in the mean time? How is that a valid town point of view?

How about his half-dozen admitted lies? How many lies does it take before you think someone is scummy?

And on your case: I cited earlier several cases of you directly or indirectly defending him. You've not rebutted those (except to point out that you climbed on NF's bandwagon D1, not D2). Have anything to say about those?  Want me to fish for the quotes?

PPE: please weigh that "gut feel" against the previous mountain of evidence, and give us a fresh perspective.

[webadict]

Web: how many shortens are needed? Had we known an extension request was outstanding, one of us would just have opposed it in those last posts. Oh well.

Hmm... I think that 5 is adequate, with no Extensions.

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

Oh god, if i hide behind 7 proxies i can post here from work. THat's the ebst day of my life

Also, Sixthed Shorten.

[webadict]

Oh god, if i hide behind 7 proxies i can post here from work. THat's the ebst day of my life

Also, Sixthed Shorten.

Fourth, but nice try.

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

Well, i did my best.

[Nirur Torir]

Shorten for great justice.

[Pandarsenic]

Only been able to skim so explain in something highly visible if I'm wrong, but is my suggestion, which CONFIRMS MY ROLE LIKE ZATHRAS IS ATTEMPTING, somehow a trap for merely saying "Nobody roleblock, do whatever the hell else as normal" somehow?

[webadict]

And as soon as it had started, it had ended. The ghosts had pushed Jokerman-EXE into the middle. It was his turn to die.

I watched as he drew from his robe a gun! Several of the congregation fell to the floor as he swung the gun around. I even held an arm up to shield myself. As if that would do much.

"I think we might be taking this a little in... the wrong direction," he said.

"You murdered Zathras," someone yelled. Several murmurs concurred, eyes on him.

"I SAVED you. All of you!" Jokerman spoke through clenched teeth. "Now, next-"

"He doesn't have any bullets," I said, suddenly feeling smarter. Jokerman looked around carefully, as did several other members. They heard me?

A brave soul came up from behind the man and knocked him to the ground. Then, it became darker, until there was no more light. There were Jokerman's screams, but nothing else.

Vote Count
------------------------
Pandarsenic - MysteriousBluePuppet, Zathras,
Org -
Ottofar -
Argembarger -
Toaster - Org,
Archangel -
MysteriousBluePuppet -
IronyOwl -
Jokerman-EXE - NativeForeigner, Nirur Torir, IronyOwl,
NativeForeigner - Toaster, Jokerman-EXE,
Nirur Torir - Pandarsenic, Argembarger,
Zathras - Ottofar,

Not Voting - Archangel,

7 To Hammer. Day Ends Wednesday 9 PM Central. 5 Shortens Requested.

Jokerman-EXE has been lynched!

Jokerman-EXE was a Gun (mafia).

It is now Night. Night Ends Thursday 9 PM Central.

Jokerman-EXE - Gun
"Gun control? We need bullet control! I think every bullet should cost 5,000 dollars. Because if a bullet cost five thousand dollar, we wouldn't have any innocent bystanders." -Chris Rock

(Auto) Safety: If someone would shoot you using your ability, the ability is instead changed to a protect action.
(Mafiakill) Arm [target]: You arm the target with yourself, killing whoever they target (including themselves). They perform their action at the same time.
(Day, 1-Use) Unload [target]: You can no longer Mafiakill or "Arm." You kill the target.

[webadict]

I've always wondered if ghosts died. And by always, I mean recently when I stumbled upon a bunch of them talking.

Now, still dressed in my toga and still stuck in this room, it's been really pressing on me. I mean, they just won't stay dead.

I had seen many die during this... show? Play? Whatever it is. But, it seems that only the wicked stay dead. Perhaps there's only rest for the wicked?

Now, when will this end?

Mr.Person has come back to life!

Vote Count
------------------------
Pandarsenic -
Org -
Ottofar -
Argembarger -
Toaster -
Archangel -
MysteriousBluePuppet -
IronyOwl -
Mr.Person -
NativeForeigner -
Nirur Torir -
Zathras -

Not Voting - Archangel, MysteriousBluePuppet, Zathras, Org, NativeForeigner, Nirur Torir, IronyOwl, Toaster, Mr.Person, Pandarsenic, Argembarger, Ottofar,

7 To Hammer. Day Ends Monday 9 PM Central.

It is now Day.

[Org]

God damn it Pandar.