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[Jokerman-EXE]

I'm sorry, when did I say I didn't want to scumhunt? Or that I wanted others to do the work for me? Never. Learn to read, bud. I'm not committing to a vote because I can't back it up yet. Trust me, I have no problem voting for a townie when I'm scum. Jokerman might not be the scummiest to me anymore, I'm still going through past posts to try to determine who is.

You said you didn't want to scumhunt when you refused to scumhunt. Instead, you sat around twiddling your thumbs going "I think Jokerman is scum but I'm not going to vote him or even question him or anything!"

I didn't refuse to scumhunt, I chose not to scumhunt Joker in favor of making an attempt to focus on somebody else. Joker, however, took my passive statement as an invitation to assault me.

Passive statements are always a reason to assault someone. Like this one:

Wow, D1's pretty intense.

Oh well, it'll be the problem of his replacement to deal with. Unless Pandar flips scum.

Thanks for not contributing anything and staying on the sideline. "Whoa, crazy man. Not my problem though. Unless X. Then maybe not."

And townies that have been scummed up and fail to clear themselves get lynched, which only hurts town. I'm not saying he shouldn't scumhunt while he's at it. Jokerman shouldn't care what people think of him, which is why I'm confused as to why he's going after me. The point of this was to point out to him that 1) Not only did others say the same, but I also wasn't the first one to claim say his name wasn't cleared and 2) illustrate how ridiculous and strange it is that he's going after only me and ignoring others claiming the same. Seems sketchy to me.

Bolded statement makes no sense. I'm going after you because you made posts that were scummy, not because of how I think I look (or whatever you're trying to say). You sidelined, hard.

1. Actually, you were the first to insist that my name wasn't cleared.

2. I'm going after plenty of people...? Did you miss a few posts back when I flopped that giant thing down? I'm on you because you're the scummiest by far, but trust me, my eye is on several people. I'm just waiting for them to post so I can rip into them too.

Tip for the future: town shouldn't care what it looks like in the eyes of the other players. If you really think someone is scum, and it looks like an OMGUS, you might die for it, but it will get your message across. You still win if Town wins and you're dead.

[Argembarger]

Sorry, I herped. That should've read "Archangel is still kitten-killing scum, and I'll be glad to die to prove it."

Also, I can't remember which game it was but in one game with a low activity level I used a Tactical Replacement Request to get heat off of me as scum. We won. Don't dismiss the possibility.

Wow, that's a downright nefarious strategy...


But, um, Archangel, that's a pretty bold move. It looks to me more like you're just utterly apathetic about this game at this point and you just want to go out in a blaze of controversy/glory and leave it up to a replacement to try to save you afterwards.

Because if Pandar flips town, I know I'll be grilling you/your replacement. As thoroughly as I can.


Mod, is a votecount coming up soon?

[Toaster]

Sorry about that.  The joys of parenthood...
Anyway.

Irony:

5. What do you think of Jokerman's claim that Zathras was ignoring his arguments?

6. Why did you miss Zathras' reasoning on Jokerman being cult?

5.  I'm not sure what you want with this one.  Zath flipped scum, so his motivations are revealed as self-interested.  Yes, he very well could have selectively ignored some, but many of his [Zath's] points are still valid.

6.  I didn't miss it.  I just didn't feel it required a response, as I didn't consider it particularly convincing- it was just theory spinning.

Then what do you make of his claiming something that isn't true?

Also, what do you think of his later turnaround on the subject, specifically:

As such, I think it would be better to focus on pulling other players into the game, and we can revisit this argument D2, when lurking becomes a bigger thing and when it might make more sense to us. Does that sound reasonable?

7.  Scummy.

8.  He got in over his head, and he tried to defuse the situation and redirect the big activity elsewhere.

Finally, 9, the question you're not asking: do I think he is scum?  I'm unconvinced.  His contradicting claims and serious OMGUS vote are scummy, but he did back up his vote with action.  Daykills are strong lylo breakers as scum- I'd expect it to be saved until later.  He's someone I'm continuing to watch, but I have other people I'm watching harder right now.  (Pandar and Native, if you're curious.)


Native:

And you're still not voting him?

Good point, I guess I wanted to avoid being accused of an OMGUS since he decided to vote me first.

Vote Jokerman, for reasons previously stated.

Do you know what we call people who change their minds on something like this when their contrary behavoir is pointed out?

Scum.

Unvote.   NativeForeigner.  Saying you didn't vote him at first to make yourself look better is just icing on the cake.

I can't say much on what might be going on with me and Toaster. It started right before Jokerman started focusing on me, so it could be that Toaster was trying to draw Joker's attention to me (rather than anyone else who had said the same thing). Then he stopped questioning me once Joker got on me. But that's pretty much just WIFOM.

I started suspecting you for the post quoted at the bottom here.  That post set off alarms and bells in my head, but you did respond to it pretty well.  My gut suspected you, but I couldn't get anything to really stick, until you shot yourself in the foot above.

[Nirur Torir]

Nirur Torir. I have to agree that he seems to be chainsawing/buddying Archangel pretty severely.

8) Come get some. You said "partially" in response to whether you're still attacking me for attacking Archangel. Why was Archangel worth chainsaw defending?

It's only a chainsaw if we're both scum. I am a townie.
As to why, it's because of you putting him at the top of your list for the wording on his question. We've been over this.

I mean, this applies to me because I suppose I attacked Archangel for the same reason Pandar did, but regardless, there's a big difference between defending someone on the grounds that someone is attacking them for a lousy reason, and defending someone by voting the person who is attacking them for a lousy reason, citing that lousy reason as proof that they are scum... As if scum are the only people capable of making slipshod arguments...? I mean, yeah, voting him for that isn't the greatest, but hey, if it gets the man talking, you know? All I can say is, you're trying to bridge a pretty wide gap here connecting Pandar's attack on Archangel to some degree of scummitude...

Oh and the definition of a chainsaw is "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum"... Can you really make the claim that what you are doing is not a chainsaw defense?

"General form" not "definition."

I have no wish to argue semantics, so I'll post the entire section of the article here, rather then just the sentence you posted.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Link

Chainsaw Defense (Tarhalindur Version)

The general form of this tell is "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum".

The key to identifying this tell is intent - it is possible to confuse Chainsaw Defense with a player who simply finds the attacker scummy and has no intent of defense. In general, you can be reasonably sure that this tell is involved if a) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense has not previously been especially critical of the player he is now attacking, and b) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense seems to find the player he is supposedly defending at least reasonably pro-town.

The extreme form of this tell is Mutual Chainsaw Defense, where two players defend each other by attacking each others' attackers. This is a major scumtell, and Tarhalindur would be willing to lynch/vig both players with only this tell as justification.

The Chainsaw Defense is named after the mental image of a player ripping apart another player with a chainsaw for daring to attack his ally. It should not be confused with the Cochrane Defense, which can also be referred to as the Chainsaw Defense (the Wiki refers to the Cochrane Defense this way), which is a gambit made by players investigated as scum. The Chainsaw Defense can also be referred to as the Bodyguard Defense in order to prevent confusion.

UPDATE: After further analysis, Tarhalindur has determined that the Chainsaw Defense is only trustworthy once the player defended has been revealed to be group scum (once the player defended is proved to be Mafia, any player that used Chainsaw Defense on the dead scum should be scrutinized). Otherwise, it is a null tell. Mutual Chainsaw Defense may, however, still be an outright scumtell; more research is required here.

a) I was attacking him before.
b) I've categorized him in the "lurker" category, rather then trying to rate his scumminess based on non-existent posts.
Yes, yes I do indeed claim to not be chainsawing.


I failed to put it in words earlier, but I find it especially suspicious how Pandarsenic didn't unvote Archangel until after receiving a response, despite the response containing nothing of value. It's as though he cared more about the potential for people to accuse him of changing his vote easily then voting who he felt was the most scummy.

He's also put notably more effort into calling me scum then actually questioning me. I won't quote all of his name-calling, but posted below are the questions he has asked me since deciding that I'm scum:

NT, are you still attacking me for when I attacked Archangel?

Archangel/Nirur Torir: Why are you two in bed with each other, exactly?

8) Come get some. You said "partially" in response to whether you're still attacking me for attacking Archangel. Why was Archangel worth chainsaw defending?

The last two could have tripped me up into falsely incriminating myself. How convenient for him if it had worked, saving him from the effort of continuing to paint me as scum.

[Nirur Torir]

Huh. After a quick re-skim, I hadn't been attacking Pandarsenic before. My defense for a) was invalid.
b) I would like to add that I had been attacking Archangel to try to get him to do more, prior to Pandarsenic's mistake.

[webadict]

HAMMER!

I was transfixed. The dead body of Zathras no longer seemed to bother me, as if the nonchalance of the ghosts was contagious. I have to admit, their arguments were steadily getting more interesting.

A while after the Zathras incident, however, Archangel took out a gavel and banged it down. It seems that the discussion time was over. Archangel had settled on the hanging of Pandarsenic.

The ghosts began chanting, and soon Pandarsenic was glowing. The glow moved over his body, eventually concentrating on his neck. It grew brighter and brighter, and Pandarsenic grabbed at his neck, before collapsing. He fell over, no longer moving.

The glow faded and then disappeared. The ghosts went to examine the body, but as Archangel reached for the cloak, Pandarsenic's arm shot up.

"Got ya."

He moved back towards his seat, but the session was over. There were to be no other hangings.

Vote Count
------------------------
Pandarsenic - Nirur Torir, IronyOwl, Archangel, Toaster,
Org - Argembarger,
Ottofar -
Argembarger -
Toaster -
Archangel -
MysteriousBluePuppet - MysteriousBluePuppet,
IronyOwl -
Jokerman-EXE - NativeForeigner,
NativeForeigner - Mr.Person, Jokerman-EXE,
Nirur Torir - Pandarsenic,
Mr.Person -

Not Voting - Ottofar, Org,

7 To Hammer. Day Ends Thursday 9 PM Central.

Pandarsenic has been lynched!

Pandarsenic has come back to life!

It is now Night. Night Ends Thursday 9PM Central.

[webadict]

I sat there in total darkness. I was wondering. How long had I been there? Days? Weeks? Were people looking for me?

I had been watching the ghosts, who had been arguing for what seems to be weeks on end. Maybe it's just me, but I feel like they see me every once in a while. Out of curiosity, I tried to touch one, but my arm went right through. The ghost had shuddered violently afterward.

They had convened after some time, but that left me to stare into total darkness. I searched for the door at that point, but there was no knob to turn. No light coming from underneath to search for. Simply darkness.

And it wasn't until another few weeks that the ghosts reconvened. Their faint light stopped the fear instead of increasing it this time. I wasn't alone. Unfortunately, there had been some accidents in the Night, and they were to begin arguing again.

Ottofar has been modkilled due to inactivity!

Ottofar has come back to life!

Mr.Person has been killed!

Mr.Person was Wal-Mart (town).

Zathras has come back to life!

Vote Count
------------------------
Pandarsenic -
Org -
Ottofar -
Argembarger -
Toaster -
Archangel -
MysteriousBluePuppet -
IronyOwl -
Jokerman-EXE -
NativeForeigner -
Nirur Torir -
Zathras -

Not Voting - Ottofar, Org, Nirur Torir, IronyOwl, Archangel, Toaster, Argembarger, MysteriousBluePuppet, NativeForeigner, Jokerman-EXE, Pandarsenic, Zathras,

7 To Hammer. Day Ends Wednesday 9 PM Central.

It is now Day.

Mr.Person - Wal-Mart
"Wal-mart... do they like make walls there?" - Paris Hilton

(Auto) Supermarket: Anyone targeting you receives a one-shot protect, inspect, or roleblock.
(Night) Buy [target]: You receive a one-shot version of the target's power. The action may be named differently.
(X) Sell: You may give away one of your acquired powers. X-Actions may be used at any time.

[Org]

Got blocked.

[Nirur Torir]

Interesting.

What was the flavor text of your block like?

[Pandarsenic]

I was also blocked.

"Stopped by outside forces."

Picking up where we left off.

Archangel, why were you in such a rush to end me? Are you disappointed by my revival?

Why were you so determined to shut me down so fast? Were you scared I'd be able to claim something that would rock your whole case? Bitch?

[Nirur Torir]

I was also blocked.

Oh, good. My question to Org is meaningless. I'd wondered if there was somebody switching my target on me.

Roleclaim: I'm a roleblocker. Each night, I can either:
Roleblock one person, or
Roleblock everybody who has said a haiku the previous day.

People reviving left and right are confusing me. I could roleblock everyone, if everyone gives a haiku. Might prevent night kills.

Zathras: What's it like, being a confirmed SK?

I'll likely be unable to post for the rest of the day, and might not be able to post tomorrow night. If not, then some time Sunday morning.

[Pandarsenic]

Just for reference, I can do something FUN AND EXCITING™ at night, but it demands I use a limited resource so I want to do it soon. I'm not saying more without a full-blown roleclaim but I want to do it tonight, so I intend to lay down a few rules before the day ends.

Nirur Torir, I don't totally trust your claim without evidence. That Haiku condition could be linked to any number of things - arson, cult recruitment, other things. Forgive me if I don't voluntarily say a haiku yet.

[Nirur Torir]

Nirur Torir, I don't totally trust your claim without evidence. That Haiku condition could be linked to any number of things - arson, cult recruitment, other things. Forgive me if I don't voluntarily say a haiku yet.

The only evidence I have is that I roleblocked you with a stream of poetry. Bad poetry, if my flavor quote is anything to go by.

[NativeForeigner]

Zathras, being a confirmed SK come back to life, do you expect to survive the day?

[Org]

I was annoyed at my block.
How can I tell if Pandar was the killer when I get blocked?