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[Shade-o]

But why is indoctrinated organised religion wrong automatically?

[Askot Bokbondeler]

Not only that, but they have shown remarkable level of faith and followed the word of their god to the end., both being religious vertues, so where did they go wrong?

They followed the word of other humans, not the word of their god. That is where they went wrong.

And you tell the difference... how?

They listened to other humans. You never take religious advice from anybody except yourself. Religion should be completely personal.

you are reading the specifics of your religion on the internet. did god wrote those wikapedia pages and blog entries? you admit to pursue a faith invented by 20th century "historians"* that failed archeology forever. your religion isn't better than any other, did the gods only sprung into existence in the 20th century? why did nobody else in the entire human history ever felt the presence of the right gods? why are your religion's version of ron l. hubbard any better than everyone else?


_{*more like larpers playin asterix and obelix, amirite?}

[Cthulhu]

ITT People insist religion should be acquired through osmosis.

Learn about religion by reading holy books and the words of people in your religion.  Filter those teachings through your moral compass.  Don't take anything at face value, but don't discredit teachings just because they were written by people (hint, everything you will ever learn about your religion was taught to you by a human).  This is where critical thinking becomes important.  Throw out the bathwater, but take the time to find the baby first.

[Andir]

You don't listen to yourself, you listen to the gods.

A holy book is just more indoctrinated organized religion. You shouldn't need a "prophet" to tell you what to believe. Think for yourself. I'm not against believing in the books, I'm against blind belief without question.

I'd argue that that's impossible.  You cannot be raised and not be told what's right and wrong.  By all accounts (I've seen) children are possessive and inherently greedy.  Their parents are always telling them to share, to be nice, etc.  If not by their parents, their teachers, judges, police...  If you truly think that you can listen to "your personal god" through your whole life without being told by someone at some point what is the right thing to do, you are deluding yourself.

[ECrownofFire]

Not only that, but they have shown remarkable level of faith and followed the word of their god to the end., both being religious vertues, so where did they go wrong?

They followed the word of other humans, not the word of their god. That is where they went wrong.

And you tell the difference... how?

They listened to other humans. You never take religious advice from anybody except yourself. Religion should be completely personal.

you are reading the specifics of your religion on the internet. did god wrote those wikapedia pages and blog entries? you admit to pursue a faith invented by 20th century "historians"* that failed archeology forever. your religion isn't better than any other, did the gods only sprung into existence in the 20th century? why did nobody else in the entire human history ever felt the presence of the right gods? why are your religion's version of ron l. hubbard any better than everyone else?


_{*more like larpers playin asterix and obelix, amirite?}

I don't learn all of this from the internet. Wicca just happens to fit my views. First you establish your views, THEN you find a religion that fits them. I learn what others do, then look to my own views and I use them only if they fit.

And stop trying to attack the history of it, you're completely failing to do it too. Wicca and other neopagan religions are a reconstruction of old traditional folk religion of early societies. There's no history of "my grandmother passed this down to me". And I have no idea where you're getting archaeology from. There is a theory that some of it may have survived, but it is generally considered incredibly unlikely and rejected.

The age of a religion has nothing to do with its truth. You make a new religion everytime you decide to not blindly follow whatever religion. I don't blindly follow Wicca. I'm only applying it to my own beliefs. Wicca describes my religion, not the other way around.

You don't listen to yourself, you listen to the gods.

A holy book is just more indoctrinated organized religion. You shouldn't need a "prophet" to tell you what to believe. Think for yourself. I'm not against believing in the books, I'm against blind belief without question.

I'd argue that that's impossible.  You cannot be raised and not be told what's right and wrong.  By all accounts (I've seen) children are possessive and inherently greedy.  Their parents are always telling them to share, to be nice, etc.  If not by their parents, their teachers, judges, police...  If you truly think that you can listen to "your personal god" through your whole life without being told by someone at some point what is the right thing to do, you are deluding yourself.

Morals are quite a bit different from religion, you should realize that.

ITT People insist religion should be acquired through osmosis.

Learn about religion by reading holy books and the words of people in your religion.  Filter those teachings through your moral compass.  Don't take anything at face value, but don't discredit teachings just because they were written by people (hint, everything you will ever learn about your religion was taught to you by a human).  This is where critical thinking becomes important.  Throw out the bathwater, but take the time to find the baby first.

I'm not saying you should randomly spring up with a religion on your own. I'm saying you look at your own beliefs, THEN find a religion that fits, THEN read into it.

But why is indoctrinated organised religion wrong automatically?

Why is brainwashing wrong? It's a bit extreme to call it brainwashing, but it's the same basic principles. People should have the freedom to think for themselves. You don't get that in indoctrinated religion.

[Shade-o]

But what makes organised religion automatically wrong? Are the beliefs that it encompasses invalid simply by virtue of being popular?

[ECrownofFire]

But what makes organised religion automatically wrong? Are the beliefs that it encompasses invalid simply by virtue of being popular?

It's not the organized religion that's wrong, it's people's blind belief in it.

Edit: You have to realize the conflicted position I hold. Because I believe in something other than what every organized religion out there believes in, of course I'm going to think they're wrong. But organized religion as a whole is what's really wrong. I'm fine with, for example, Christianity, but indoctrination of it or any other religion is wrong.

[Shade-o]

But if blind belief in an organised religion brings somebody to peace and happiness, including an understanding of the universe and their place in it, how is it worse than alternatives which give the same results?

[Siquo]

Oh yeah, my wiccan phase. Totally forgot about that. 'twas fun until the sacrifices.

[ECrownofFire]

But if blind belief in an organised religion brings somebody to peace and happiness, including an understanding of the universe and their place in it, how is it worse than alternatives which give the same results?

Hmm, now this one got me thinking, good job

Well, first of all, my beliefs are not strictly "traditional" Wiccan. My religious beliefs, for the most part, are, but many things are not. I would say that they are going about happiness the wrong way. Ultimately, they're on the wrong path. Temporary happiness, as it may be. Life and death is a cycle; reincarnation, a journey. That journey leads you to a better understanding of yourself and the universe. Blind belief does not do this. It leads to you going through life with no real understanding of why you really are. It may give you a reason why you exist, and even why you follow the religion, but it's the wrong answer to the wrong question. It is not a question of why you are following X religion, it's a question of why you are following the general path you are on. That includes everything from religion, politics, even down to simple things like choosing to get out of bed each morning. You have to understand why you want answers before you can get any.

It is the difference between blindly following a path through life, ignoring all others, and actively choosing your own. Blind belief is going to end up with you following the wrong beliefs. You may even end up at the right end, but it's about the journey, not the destination. Most likely you are just going to end up passing by it. Choose your own path, and you'll ultimately be happier for it. If you end up on the wrong one, then it is most likely a life lesson you should learn, or something apporximately equivalent to it. It is NOT the same results that are given from alternatives, simply because this is a journey for you, not your body.

I find it very difficult to really express what I feel about this. In a nutshell, blind happiness leads to you forgetting everything around you.

Oh yeah, my wiccan phase. Totally forgot about that. 'twas fun until the sacrifices.

There's no sacrifices in Wicca, what are you talking about? Even if there were, you don't have to blindly follow everything.

[Andir]

Oh yeah, my wiccan phase. Totally forgot about that. 'twas fun until the sacrifices.

There's no sacrifices in Wicca, what are you talking about? Even if there were, you don't have to blindly follow everything.

There are sacrifices in everything... maybe not ritual sacrifices, but there are sacrifices.

Also, morals are very much tied to what religion you choose.  If you have a set of morals that believe that you should cull the weak in society, you will obviously choose a religion that supports that idea.  You are taught a set of morals by your parents and even if you think you are choosing your religion on your own free will, you are still choosing one which is based on your experiences with your parents growing up.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

But if blind belief in an organised religion brings somebody to peace and happiness, including an understanding of the universe and their place in it, how is it worse than alternatives which give the same results?

Because I've never seen an organised religion bring someone freedom of thought, reason, skepicism, or scientific enquiry. The problem with that is that those four concepts are the basis of our world's collective rise out of the Dark Ages. We must never fall back into that cycle of stagnation and death. You can't just have people give you the answers to everything in your life if you expect to develop and progress our collective knowlage. It doesn't matter if that makes you happy or gives you the beleif that you have Special Snowflake status in our universe. Everyone must find their own path, not step in the same prints of those before them. In short: the alternatives don't give the same results. In organized religion, you end up being a Believer before you're an independent person. In disorganized religion and non-religion, you're an independent person before everything else.

[ECrownofFire]

Oh yeah, my wiccan phase. Totally forgot about that. 'twas fun until the sacrifices.

There's no sacrifices in Wicca, what are you talking about? Even if there were, you don't have to blindly follow everything.

There are sacrifices in everything... maybe not ritual sacrifices, but there are sacrifices.

Also, morals are very much tied to what religion you choose.  If you have a set of morals that believe that you should cull the weak in society, you will obviously choose a religion that supports that idea.  You are taught a set of morals by your parents and even if you think you are choosing your religion on your own free will, you are still choosing one which is based on your experiences with your parents growing up.

I'm getting a bit tired of all these questions. It just feels like an interview now. Playing Mass Effect at the same time is not exactly helping either... But it's nice to do this, give some people some insight to my thought process, expand my horizons, all of that.

Anyway, yes, morals have some influence on that. Morals are mostly an issue of your own self though. However, it's not exactly difficult to "modify" a religion to fit your "needs", whether that's for good or bad. Just look at all the different subsets of Christianity and try to tell me that you can't pick and choose specifics in a religion. Your choice of religion shouldn't be an absolute subscription to everything it believes, it should serve as a convenient label. Wiccan, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, they should all just be labels. Unfortunately, indoctrinated religion has led people to believe that a label means absolute belief in that religion, with no room for changes.

Everybody listen to this man. I took it on a spiritual note, he took it on a more scientific note, and we arrived at almost the same basic conclusion: you can't be given answers.

But if blind belief in an organised religion brings somebody to peace and happiness, including an understanding of the universe and their place in it, how is it worse than alternatives which give the same results?

Because I've never seen an organised religion bring someone freedom of thought, reason, skepicism, or scientific enquiry. The problem with that is that those four concepts are the basis of our world's collective rise out of the Dark Ages. We must never fall back into that cycle of stagnation and death. You can't just have people give you the answers to everything in your life if you expect to develop and progress our collective knowlage. It doesn't matter if that makes you happy or gives you the beleif that you have Special Snowflake status in our universe. Everyone must find their own path, not step in the same prints of those before them. In short: the alternatives don't give the same results. In organized religion, you end up being a Believer before you're an independent person. In disorganized religion and non-religion, you're an independent person before everything else.

[Andir]

I'm getting a bit tired of all these questions.

Not questioning, just saying.  Also, I agree with your views on indoctrination, but personally, I think if nobody was indoctrinated in any religion, religion would die off. (even Wicca)

Now, I could definitely accept a world without religion, but there are still people who will come up with their own ideas and they will continue to try to teach those to others so I think religion would eventually work it's way back into society through simple human ingenuity.  Parents will go back to indoctrinating their children and the world will return to what it is.  The only way to avoid that is to successfully answer each individual's questions in life in the most honest and educated way possible and let them know when conjecture is being conveyed.  Unfortunately, parents are not good at telling their kids to behave without using Santa, God, Karma, or some other "magical" being or thought process.  Sometimes it simply takes too long to explain to and develop them properly.

[malimbar04]

it sounds to me like we're regressing into the idea of happiness as the supreme goal of life. I don't know all the specifics of the argument, but I vaguely remember "would you rather be a happy housefly or a miserable Socrates?"

If I had to choose between the two, I'd pick the latter. Of course, I think it would be even better to be a happy Socrates. The more we learn the more awesome things get.

Who would have thought that the universe could have possibly started from a small area of the always unknowable quantum world suddenly (and randomly) deciding there was going to be a huge amount of energy, literally splitting an area of nothingness smaller than the eye can see, into the a universe so big we'll never know exactly how big it is? What's even cooler is that this doesn't come from within the mind, but instead it's what the universe is telling us. It's not a vaguely human-centered universe, and it's not whispering into ears or causing an internal warmth to confirm. It is instead calling to us through evidence, over and over again, like a parent trying to teach their child how to eat food when they're stuck moving peas around with a plastic butterknife.

What I'm trying to say is that (a) happiness, peace, and so forth are bad reasons to believe something, and (b) the way things really work (with evidence to back it up) are so often insanely more amazing.