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[Realmfighter]

Look down, then back to me.

This thread is now semantics.

[Zrk2]

So?...

[Urist is dead tome]

So it has been derailed far, far way from the origina topic.

[Zrk2]

It was reasonably close until this page.

[Micro102]

All massive threads get derailed. It's a fact of lifeforums.

[Siquo]

If semantics is derailment, it has derailed 300 pages ago. Can we just agree that (belief == faith == philosophy) != religion? That'd make everything easier. Even though beliefs and faiths are subsets with different connotations than a personal philosophy, they share the same basics.

[Phmcw]

Anyway, a lot has been said, and we're bound to have a bit of repetition. But here's my say on my beliefs, or lack thereof, refined thank to this forum.

I'll make a comparison : I can't scientifically prove that there is no gosh in my room.
The reason is simple : there is no unified gosh theory.
Anyway I don't feel the need to prove it: I've never saw such gosh in action, and the very idea of a gosh haunting my room is all kind of silly.
It, however doesn't mean that I rebuke all idea of life after death.
However, If you add detail such as "the scary gosh of a little girl that will murder you if you don't send this email to ten poeple in the next hour", I'll pretty much laugh in your face, and add your email address to my spam list.

Do I believe in gosh?

It's a complicated problem if your think about it : I don't completely rebuke the idea of life after death, but still won't respond to you chain email.
My stance on the problem is that I don't believe in gosh, because gosh are something of the folklore, and that the hypothetic lasting trace of a deceased human deserve a more fitting name. But it's a purely semantic argument.

It's the same problem with the belief in god.
I won't agree that a traditional belief in god (catholic, Lutheran, Sunni Islam,...) is even remotely reasonable.
However, depending on how much your definition of god is watered down, it may come back to a reasonable level of sense, both scientifically and philosophically.   

[Askot Bokbondeler]

why isn't the idea of life after death or of the existence of god as absurd as the idea that a ghost exists in your room? it's just some unprovable thing that somebody pulled out of his ass, and no amount of watering down will change that...

and it's ghost

[Siquo]

Anyway, a lot has been said, and we're bound to have a bit of repetition. But here's my say on my beliefs, or lack thereof, refined thank to this forum.

Nice way of putting it.

Let me try that...

I can't scientifically prove that a god does or does not exist.
I have, however, seen a god in action.
Now the problem is all those different people with all those different views of what it is that they might have seen as well.
Maybe God is all of those, like a 3D object in flatland, like this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Viewed from above, it's a circle, from one side it's a triangle, and viewed from another it's a trapezium. Or God is a coffee-filter, for the metaphor-impaired.

As in: it's all of the above. Or maybe she's not. It's impossible to tell from that brief glimpse I had. So I can either pick&choose, or believe in everything at the same time, or none at all, or disregard the rather profound experience as a "glitch". And I can't seem to choose any of those consistently, I keep switching, or believing all of those, or none of them, or picking and choosing, sometimes per minute even.
It doesn't bother me, but it makes it hard for others to have a consistent "I'm right you're wrong" kind of discussion about it.

[Glowcat]

why isn't the idea of life after death or of the existence of god as absurd as the idea that a ghost exists in your room?

It isn't that the idea isn't absurd, but people are terrified by the idea of actually dying so they cling onto any hope they can imagine.

[Phmcw]

why isn't the idea of life after death or of the existence of god as absurd as the idea that a ghost exists in your room? it's just some unprovable thing that somebody pulled out of his ass, and no amount of watering down will change that...

and it's ghost

Meh, It's precisely my point.
"the gosh of a little girl will haunt your house I you don't send back this email" is not the same that "After my death, If I still exist, I will do everything in my power to watch after you".

While the first is obvious bullshit (not obvious enough apparently because some poeple still send them), the second is not likely to happen, but who know?
Not all unverifiable claim have the same amount of "unbeliviability".

Siquo, that's what I speaking about. I don't believe in your god, but won't call you a fool : You don't waste too much time trying to please it, keep your free thinking, and it's actually believable. But then again it's a very watered down definition of god, and you could call it something else without impairing it too much. (beside, have your experience proved that "it" was in fact the creator of the universe, or was it merely "paranormal"?)

For me, you're like someone spending one buck every week at the national lottery : most likely won't win anything, but it's harmless, both for you and your entourage.

By comparison, a young hearth Christian is someone that send 500$  weekly to the same Nigerian bank waiting for his billion dollars to arrive.

[Shrugging Khan]

God is so very obviously man-made (just look at the damned thing; it's 80% wish fulfilment, 15% prehistoric science, and 5% fabrication by power-hungry organisations), the burden of proof really lies on the believers. If they can't prove it, they ought to just exclude themselves from debate.

Amirite?

[Askot Bokbondeler]

nope, what fun would this thread be if it was full of atheists friendly agreeing with each other?

[Shrugging Khan]

Well now, that's not how it would be. If the one or two religious people we have in here were to be quiet, then it'd all go back to atheists disagreeing rather verbally about how rude one may be in one's approach to the religious.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

ah, yes. although i may not dispute your right to be rude to religious people, theres a limit on how rude you can be on this forum. bear that in mind, for i rather enjoy your company.