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[ECrownofFire]

After talking a bit more with that girl I quoted earlier, I feel I shouldn't call myself atheist anymore, I don't wanna band myself with people so mind bogginly stupid to say something like this:

hun the code of hamuribi was the first known set of laws and it was nothing to do with religion[/b]

it was from a king who said the reason he can make the laws is cause he was a god

but in reality it was rules from a king

not religious


Really people? Really?

I don't really see a problem with that.  I mean, there's probably older examples of laws, but a historical slipup isn't a reason to disown a label.

Her point seems to be "The king gave those laws, not god, so we don't need god to be moral".

The problem is that she made it she said that with the intention of saying religion did not affect society in any way even in old times.

No, the thing that she said is that religion influenced it to the point that kings could do that kind of thing (even though the king didn't actually do that ). Or at least, that's what I read from it. Other than the obvious "ALL RELIGION IS BAD AND NEEDS TO BE REMOVED" thing that's going on there.

[Shrugging Khan]

ALL RELIGION IS BAD AND NEEDS TO BE REMOVED.

I approve of that message.

[Dakk]

Me: religion was actualy the first drive for a society based on laws.

Her: not true

>follow horrible hamurabi code slipup.

I can take a screenie if you like.

[Shrugging Khan]

And how do you know that? Maybe the first laws very simply utilitarian and religion-less 

[Leafsnail]

It's a bit chicken or egg in that example, though.  Did the religion inspire the law, or was it just a convenient way to coat it?  Or was the religion, to some extent, invented or modified to help include the law?

[ECrownofFire]

The first laws were probably primarily based on instinct and very basic thoughts similar to it, and something more like "I don't mess with you, and you don't mess with me".

[Askot Bokbondeler]

the first law was "hey! that mine. you touch that, me hit you with big stick"

[Dakk]

If you are reffering to natural law, that is pretty much true. The first formal effort of making written laws everyone should follow was based on religion, though, at least the earliest historical examples are like this. Even though it was not much different from "bigger stick > smaller stick".

Innuendo intentional.

[Urist is dead tome]

Gentlemen. Here we have a conundrum.

I would say that religion came first and put in the first laws.

And at the start of a pistol, there will be a race to call me an idiot.

On you're marks...

[Askot Bokbondeler]

idiot.

i win!!

edit: now that my position was secured i can write a meaningful post. you do you believe earth and mankind was created as described in genesis, right? and the holy book is the only proof you need to demonstrate your point, right? i don't think there's any point in discussing this matter with you, then, we would be talking about different universes.

[Leafsnail]

Again, I would kindof object to "based on religion".  Since if they're based on the religion... well, the religion had to have had those laws written down in the first place, right?  And those initial laws couldn't have been based off religion (unless you're ok with unlimited circular logic).

[Dakk]

I wi- fuck.

[ECrownofFire]

I'd say it was mostly because religion had so much control back then. A favorite quote of mine is "history is written by the winners". Religion was winning for a long time, until we figured out that separation of church and state is a good thing, and a religion having power is bad.

Hurray for being religious and not liking organized religion

[Urist is dead tome]

idiot.

i win!!

You're prize is the golden example of irony.

Again, I would kindof object to "based on religion".  Since if they're based on the religion... well, the religion had to have had those laws written down in the first place, right?  And those initial laws couldn't have been based off religion (unless you're ok with unlimited circular logic).

That is true. But the way I see it is that G-d taught people himself. No written law so that doesn't count.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

note that i edited my post after securing my victory, please climb a few posts.