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[Shrugging Khan]

The economy drives a wasting of irreplaceable resources, an arms race in the commercialisation of human life and the transformation of living humans into working machines, as well as a selling-out of mental capabilities on all fronts. The portion of the economy that serves proper sustenance and sustainability rather than cancerous growth is frustratingly small.

[Leafsnail]

It's tough. If the parents really believe that their child will go to hell for getting medical treatment, well then... I guess the problem is why the hell do they believe something like that? But think about how hard it would be for you the other way around. A doctor denies potentially life-saving surgery in favor of prayer. On one hand, denying your child medical care is very nearly outright evil. On the other hand, their eternal soul is more important than their body.

It's an absolute mess, is what's for sure. Should we do what's best for someone because they're wrong? or should we leave them to deal with the consequences of their ignorance? Even if innocents suffer in the process.

They're free to believe in an eternal soul, but they can't use that as an excuse to kill children.  I draw the line at innocents being hurt every time.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

It's tough. If the parents really believe that their child will go to hell for getting medical treatment, well then... I guess the problem is why the hell do they believe something like that? But think about how hard it would be for you the other way around. A doctor denies potentially life-saving surgery in favor of prayer. On one hand, denying your child medical care is very nearly outright evil. On the other hand, their eternal soul is more important than their body.

It's an absolute mess, is what's for sure. Should we do what's best for someone because they're wrong? or should we leave them to deal with the consequences of their ignorance? Even if innocents suffer in the process.

They're free to believe in an eternal soul, but they can't use that as an excuse to kill children.  I draw the line at innocents being hurt every time.

Indeed. I personally think that if you refuse life-saving treatment or try to make your children do the same on religious grounds, then you have passed the point of making proper judgement and should be treated in accordance with implied consent.

[Willfor]

as far as I'm concerned, a one-man-culture is better than a billion-people one, simply because it doesn't impose. Similar thing with christian science / intelligent design / lots of comparable shite - it wastes resources, distracts people's attentions, and invariable attracts followers that then turn to spreading their...I'll call it wrongness, because fuck yeah. Certainly, I don't see it as a priority (because in most cases they're too ridiculous to stand up to any scrutiny), but I'd rather like to see it gone than to state false indifference about it. It's no immediate danger to anything, but nonetheless a tremendous waste.

You know, I would say everyone is weak, easily manipulated, and deluded.

Almost all religious people are several of these, and then some.

And I should say here that I don't care about a prime mover debate. Who cares? Belief, counter-factual or no, doesn't have any effect on reality. The only thing that changes is the perception of the believer.

When belief is shared by many, especially when it's hundreds of millions, it may very well shape society on up to a global scale - which does affect an unfortunately tangible part of reality.

So, to not sound too soft here:
RELIGION IS FAILURE! AGNOSTICISM IS COWARDICE! AGGRESSIVE ATHEISM IS THE WAY!

Also, there is no such thing as a prime mover.

This seems to me like something that could stand to have its relaxed state amplified. Though I could be wrong in that regard.

[Urist Imiknorris]

The economy drives a wasting of irreplaceable resources, an arms race in the commercialisation of human life and the transformation of living humans into working machines, as well as a selling-out of mental capabilities on all fronts. The portion of the economy that serves proper sustenance and sustainability rather than cancerous growth is frustratingly small.

Which irreplaceable resources are you referring to?

[Renault]

The economy drives a wasting of irreplaceable resources, an arms race in the commercialisation of human life and the transformation of living humans into working machines, as well as a selling-out of mental capabilities on all fronts. The portion of the economy that serves proper sustenance and sustainability rather than cancerous growth is frustratingly small.

Which irreplaceable resources are you referring to?

For the love of God lets avoid that debate again.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

i'm following the discussion, i have yet to post anything pertinent because mostly, khan is taking the words out of my mouth in the tone i would have expressed them, even if a bit more eloquently... try not to have another "that guy with the beans" kind of accident, though.

i just wanted to express my support for ruthless militant atheism.

[Argembarger]

Hehehe, would you say the orcs in your avatar are theists, then?

[Urist Imiknorris]

No, they're hardcore militant agnostics. Unsure about the true path, they attack everyone indiscriminately.

[Bauglir]

The red text was just my "This is my 'moderating the thread' statement" thing. Since I want to participate in the thread, I want to make it obvious whether I'm saying something as just somebody talking, or as somebody considering locking it to prevent a flamewar, and make sure that I'm not getting the roles confused in a sort of, "Fine, I'm leaving and taking my ball with me" sort of way. Probably should've been more explicit about that, in retrospect. For instance, "Quit being a douche, Shrugging Khan. You're not actually backing up your assertions of mental deficiency in theists, you're just repeating them loudly and at length." is not a rebuttal to anything he's said, and I don't want it to be treated as such (Zeus knows it'd open me up to all sorts of accusations about ad hominem attacks). It's just a reminder of the sort of standard of behavior expected in this thread, because it's precisely the, "You're all idiots/blasphemers/what have you" attitude that always leads to the flamewars for which religious topics are well-known, and I was hoping we might, for once, get past that. I didn't (and don't) expect to, but still. Hoping, anyway.

Anyway. The "You can believe whatever you want to believe as long as you're not hurting people" thing is generally a good place to work from, in terms of how you're going to regulate other people. This means that, yes, there are a lot of cases where you have to force people to do things against their beliefs (such as the aforementioned children situations), and I think that that's ok. Actually, here's a thing. What differences, if any, do you see between your criteria for how you act, and your criteria for how other people ought to act in terms of religious belief?

[Askot Bokbondeler]

Anyway. The "You can believe whatever you want to believe as long as you're not hurting people" thing is generally a good place to work from, in terms of how you're going to regulate other people. This means that, yes, there are a lot of cases where you have to force people to do things against their beliefs (such as the aforementioned children situations), and I think that that's ok.

you're hurting someone when you condemn them to hell, though...

[fqllve]

You're hurting yourself worse.

[MrWiggles]

Anyway. The "You can believe whatever you want to believe as long as you're not hurting people" thing is generally a good place to work from, in terms of how you're going to regulate other people. This means that, yes, there are a lot of cases where you have to force people to do things against their beliefs (such as the aforementioned children situations), and I think that that's ok.

you're hurting someone when you condemn them to hell, though...

Hell isn't real. Ergo, being condemn to a fantasy realm cannot hurt. 

[Urist Imiknorris]

Hell is the grownups' version of the boogeyman.

Be good or Satan'll getcha!

[Askot Bokbondeler]

and god is the grownups version of santa?