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[MC Dirty]

I do believe in a creator though.  Mostly because, seriously...Math?  Physics?  That is AWESOME, and I firmly believe that there is Someone out there who needs a high-five.

To me that sounds self-destructive (self-deprecating?).  To think that humans could not come up with such concepts and that they were created by something divine and handed down.  Why do you "hate" humanity so much to think that we could not do such feats without "divine inspiration"?

No, you misunderstand.  I'm not saying that God came to our mathematicians in a blinding flash of inspiration.  I'm saying that the very existence of all the crazy shit we have is totally awesome.  Euler's Identity for one.  The wonderful thing about math is that it's a universal language--it reveals truths inherent to the universe, things that are true whether we discover them or not.  And some of those truths are so whacked-out crazy awesome that, well, they're like works of art.  Literal works of art.

Math doesn't tell us anything about any "inherent truths". Mathematics is a model created to best describe intuitive methods of counting, calculating and measuring. That is all. If those intuitive methods would be different, mathematics would be different; the axioms and definitions we have would be different. It doesn't tell us about anything we haven't discovered. We just assume it does and it works most of the time, so we just roll with it.

[Bauglir]

I do believe in a creator though.  Mostly because, seriously...Math?  Physics?  That is AWESOME, and I firmly believe that there is Someone out there who needs a high-five.

To me that sounds self-destructive (self-deprecating?).  To think that humans could not come up with such concepts and that they were created by something divine and handed down.  Why do you "hate" humanity so much to think that we could not do such feats without "divine inspiration"?

No, you misunderstand.  I'm not saying that God came to our mathematicians in a blinding flash of inspiration.  I'm saying that the very existence of all the crazy shit we have is totally awesome.  Euler's Identity for one.  The wonderful thing about math is that it's a universal language--it reveals truths inherent to the universe, things that are true whether we discover them or not.  And some of those truths are so whacked-out crazy awesome that, well, they're like works of art.  Literal works of art.

Math doesn't tell us anything about any "inherent truths". Mathematics is a model created to best describe intuitive methods of counting, calculating and measuring. That is all. If those intuitive methods would be different, mathematics would be different; the axioms and definitions we have would be different. It doesn't tell us about anything we haven't discovered. We just assume it does and it works most of the time, so we just roll with it.

Empiricism: It's pretty great.
--------------------
@Others Also, cut it out with the "didn't you get muted" etc. stuff, this topic gets heated enough without random bashing thrown in.

[Shrugging Khan]

I didn't really consider myself bashed. Can't we just assume that whenever someone doesn't actively announce their insulted-ness, any insults previously flung were good-natured?

[MC Dirty]

I didn't really consider myself bashed. Can't we just assume that whenever someone doesn't actively announce their insulted-ness, any insults previously flung were good-natured?

I feel insulted.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[fqllve]

And there's other options than intelligence even if it can't be by chance.  How about, say, an infinite number of parallel universes, each with slightly different fundamental variables?

I think design and not-design(chance) are basically the only options we have there. With an infinite number of parallel universes everything still just boils down to chance. A billion different universes might have tried and failed before we ever got our chance at existence.

Or what's an even weirder thought, every universe might be almost certain to contain life.

[Leafsnail]

Well, no.  Because the universe that "succeeds" will be the one with us in.

It's like... if you have a million boxes, and you teleport into one at random.  What's the chance that the box you're in is the one you teleported into?

[Shrugging Khan]

Lol, anthropocentrism.

[fqllve]

Right, so from hindsight it's obvious that we have to exist and that everything that has to be true for us to exist has to be true. But it's no less a matter of probability.

If you have an infinite number of universes flitting in and out of existence any possible iteration is going to happen eventually. The confluence of factors is something with a probability. If you pick a universe at random there's some chance that it will be that one. But the probability that the universe we appear in is the one that supports our life is 100%.

[Shrugging Khan]

That's...the most redundant conclusion ever.

[Leafsnail]

It's not anthropocentrism at all.

It's just "The universe we're in is the universe where we can exist" (or one of the universes where we can exist).

Basically, if you have infinity tries, even the super unlikely can happen.

[Shrugging Khan]

OH MY-

Stop it. Your 1=1x1 is hurting my head.

[Argembarger]

All clock faces are wrong, guys.

Embrace the 96-hour day. It's more harmonious with nature.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

If you have an infinite number of universes flitting in and out of existence any possible iteration is going to happen instantly, an infinite number of times.

Your conception of infinite is too small.

[MC Dirty]

If you have an infinite number of universes flitting in and out of existence any possible iteration is going to happen instantly, an infinite number of times.

Your conception of infinite is too small.

Probably depends on whether it's numerable or innumerable.

Don't expect to get away with comments about "infinity" without a math student interfering.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

That german guy with the beans, right?

peas