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[ECrownofFire]

Well, you said a theistic position that doesn't use intelligent design.  Does that mean your belief system uses a god or gods that exist, but which did not create the universe, or are perhaps themselves part of a natural creation?  What's their role, are they in any way connected to human existence?

Whether the gods existed before the universe started or not is irrelevant (for all it matters, they could have created the universe and left it alone). The one thing I am against is intelligent design of anything. The gods are largely neutral and natural. They are outside of the universe, which makes them transcendent, but they're also immanent. It's kind of hard to explain without completely giving away what religion I believe in (something that I'd rather not do). I'm actually purposefully leaving out a large part of my religion avoid doing this. I guess you could say that they're part of natural creation, sort of, maybe. I think my views could be most accurately described as... maybe pantheistic. The gods are in everything (immanent), but they also transcend the universe. Like I said, it's hard to explain without giving away my religion.

[Glowcat]

Sounds like Hinduism.

[ECrownofFire]

Sounds like Hinduism.

Except that it's not

[Urist is dead tome]

Scientology? Nah!

[ECrownofFire]

Scientology? Nah!

Yes, I'm actually a Scientologist

[Urist is dead tome]

Tell me if I'm prying too much but.... Seriously?

[ECrownofFire]

Tell me if I'm prying too much but.... Seriously?

Please note the rolling eyes

[Urist is dead tome]

"You're glib"

Everyone's favorite scientologist.

[Micro102]

Why does everyone hate Scientology? I googled it and found that it was written by a well known writer, is the fastest growing religion, and........ Wait is it that one where you torture yourself?

[Sowelu]

Micro, either you're trolling, or you honestly don't know.  I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I'm honestly not sure which direction that would go.

Spoiler: Scientology (click to show/hide)

Suffice to say that Scientology's author was not some great spiritual writer.  He wrote science fiction, and once said "If I really wanted to make money, I would start a religion".  Religious dogma includes spaceships in the past that exactly resembled a certain model of airplane, and an evil space alien trapping the souls of some dead civilization in a volcano on Earth and then blowing them up with an atomic bomb.  (These souls btw, aka Thetans, are the reason we're kind of messed up and they need to be cleansed--just $599.99!)  If you actually read the book, it's kind of creepy too, like the "bad" kind of witchcraft:  It tells you to stand around and look at crowds, try to get a feeling for how they move, sense the energies in them, and then start trying to control people, decide that this person is going to turn at this corner, that person is going to drop something, etc.  Seriously.  If you need to know anything else about Scientology, go watch the movie "Battlefield Earth".  That was written by the guy who developed Scientology.  It will explain everything you need to know.

Oh yeah, and they stalk, harass, and have on more than one occasion kidnapped ex-members who speak out against them.  Non-members too, sometimes.  They're very fond of legal action.  Oh yeah...and when you sign up for their "religion", you can sign up for life, or for MORE than life.  As in, you sign up to serve for future reincarnations, too.  Creeped out yet?

[Micro102]

Yeeeeaaah Looked up some more after posting.....

Wow.

[Sowelu]

Interesting.  When I'm worrying less about logical proofs and more about enjoying life, I'm pretty far into animist territory...so if nothing else, it's at least pretty familiar to me.  Understood about not wanting to give it away, though.

[Siquo]

Wow, what a strawman. I attack the statement "Because it is imperfect (in some way that I can imagine but not fully grasp), it cannot be designed", and it turns into the standard watchmaker argument.

In reverse: I find a watch that doesn't tell time correctly. I conclude from that, that it was not designed but occurred naturally because it's imperfect. (Even though it tells time perfectly, just in mars-days, but I was unable to see that at that time).

[Glowcat]

Wow, what a strawman. I attack the statement "Because it is imperfect (in some way that I can imagine but not fully grasp), it cannot be designed", and it turns into the standard watchmaker argument.

In reverse: I find a watch that doesn't tell time correctly. I conclude from that, that it was not designed but occurred naturally because it's imperfect. (Even though it tells time perfectly, just in mars-days, but I was unable to see that at that time).

You are the one who began establishing arbitrary criteria for a supposed super-agent's design. While perceived imperfections don't disprove a designer, and perfection is even meaningless without first determining a desire, I believe the point Shades was getting at was that if this universe was designed it has managed to be indistinguishable from the non-artificial ("chance") and it shows no apparent purpose of design. If there is a designer of some sort then its interests are not at all similar to our own.

In this case you found an object that you don't understand and it doesn't look like it does anything in particular besides exist, and yet you have decided that somebody must have designed it to do... something.

[Siquo]

Yeah, that's about right. In my life (<- there, that piece is important), things need purpose to exist. So the same goes vice versa, because stuff exists, it must have a purpose. From the tiniest neutron to the universe itself. And purpose implies intelligence, therefore, a God.