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Author Topic: The "America Question"  (Read 19575 times)

Sir Pseudonymous

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Re: The "America Question"
« Reply #210 on: December 15, 2010, 08:31:12 pm »

Anyone who considers sales tax to be in any way, shape or form a punishment has a fundamentally broken view of the economy.

(Except for sin taxes, which are screwed up anyway.)
"Punishment" in the sense of "making more difficult/punishing", not in the sense of "disciplinary action".

"I know! Let's punish people for spending money! That'll sure help the economy!"

I don't understand what the hell this fixation with sales taxes is. The "flat tax" obsession can be be explained by an antisocial sense of entitlement, made inexplicable by the fact that 99% of the people that argue for it would be harmed by it ("I want those rich people to have more money, and I should be paying higher taxes so they don't have to!"), but arguing that the best thing would be to actively punish people for spending their money? That shows an even more fundamental lack of comprehension of how an economy actually works, namely by people spending their money on shit. Both sales and flat taxes directly harm the economy, the first by discouraging purchasing to begin with, and both by reducing the purchasing power of the largest demographics. With a sales tax you also get the very real issue of much of your potential income being burned away by spending on foreign soil, unless you impose extremely high tariffs and either tax or greatly restrict currency changing.

You can tax people on money they spend so they take a second look at buying something they don't need...
Which is bad for the economy. You want people spending money, especially poor people. Because, you see, that money goes right back up the ladder to the government, and everything other than foreign aid (an essentially negligible percent of the budget) goes into improving the infrastructure that the economy runs off of, more or less for free since any money spent is also directly thrown back into the economy. The important thing is the system remaining moving: if people don't spend money, businesses don't make money, which means they cannot afford to keep operating, at least at their current capacity, which means fewer people working, which means fewer people able to spend money, which means even more businesses suffer even worse, and so on. The only thing that breaks cycles like that is the government dumping money into the lower segments of society by providing jobs for people, subsidizing goods that would otherwise be too expensive, and ensuring that the infrastructure that allows society to function keeps running.

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or you can tax someone for working so they don't want to work.  (Especially if they can get government aid not working...)
If someone is satisfied with the "significantly less than someone can actually live on" amount they'd get from the government enough to not work at all, then they're not a productive member of society in the first place. They're either so lazy and unmotivated that, regardless of ability, they'd never go beyond the piece of shit "requires no discernible skill" jobs, or they lack the ability to do so. If the government pays them some paltry some so that they don't starve to death or turn to crime, guess what they're going to do? Spend it (locally, since they're too poor to spend it somewhere it won't end up back in the government's hands sooner or later)! Meaning businesses make money, employees get payed, and they all pay taxes, so society can keep functioning and the lowest level of society can be bribed away from turning to crime.

Edit: to make it clear, I'm talking about voluntary unemployment in the last paragraph, not cases where someone is forced into it, by injury or lack of available jobs (and of course, they tend to receive more in aid, as they should, since their circumstances are generally temporary, and it would be harmful to reduce their quality of life (not to mention the morale boost that "even if I lose my job I'll be ok until I can find a new one" gives) while they recover/look for a new job, not to mention that it would reduce their ability to relocate if their current area lacks any jobs in their field.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 08:44:02 pm by Sir Pseudonymous »
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Andir

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Re: The "America Question"
« Reply #211 on: December 15, 2010, 08:38:01 pm »

You act as if people will stop buying things tomorrow and horde their cash in their mattresses...

edit: Especially after getting that 30% of their income back...
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 08:39:48 pm by Andir »
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Earthquake Damage

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Re: The "America Question"
« Reply #212 on: December 15, 2010, 08:45:25 pm »

I'm pretty sure industry needs to buy things... supplies, tools, equipment, food...

Suppose you replace all taxation with a sales tax (or whatever you want to call it).  You apply this tax to all business transactions.

Congratulations!  You've given vertically integrated firms a competitive advantage.  Any industry that uses intermediate inputs will have less competition and all that entails.  Is that what you were trying to do?
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Leafsnail

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Re: The "America Question"
« Reply #213 on: December 15, 2010, 08:54:52 pm »

VAT (or sales tax) is basically just a way for the government to make money.  There... isn't really any other reason for it, but it is a big earner.
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Sowelu

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Re: The "America Question"
« Reply #214 on: December 15, 2010, 09:05:40 pm »

VAT (or sales tax) is basically just a way for the government to make money.  There... isn't really any other reason for it, but it is a big earner.
Which is exactly as it should be, really.

And yeah.  I like the VAT system in specific.  It's neat, look it up.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: The "America Question"
« Reply #215 on: December 16, 2010, 08:05:10 am »

You act as if people will stop buying things tomorrow and horde their cash in their mattresses...

edit: Especially after getting that 30% of their income back...
Except, to replace the money lost with the demise of the current tax system, prices would go up more than %50, making that %30 a net loss.
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Andir

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Re: The "America Question"
« Reply #216 on: December 16, 2010, 08:13:54 am »

You act as if people will stop buying things tomorrow and horde their cash in their mattresses...

edit: Especially after getting that 30% of their income back...
Except, to replace the money lost with the demise of the current tax system, prices would go up more than %50, making that %30 a net loss.
It has been projected that the sales tax would be around 20-24% (really close to that VAT asnyway...)

People would be getting a ~50% raise (eg: $9 gross - (current ~30% tax) == $6 income + $3 from lack of income tax == +50% income.)

Edit: not sales tax
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 08:16:44 am by Andir »
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Lord Shonus

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Re: The "America Question"
« Reply #217 on: December 16, 2010, 08:15:21 am »

Why would sales tax go away? That's a state function, and it's not going anywhere.
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Andir

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Re: The "America Question"
« Reply #218 on: December 16, 2010, 08:17:02 am »

Why would sales tax go away? That's a state function, and it's not going anywhere.
Edited that.  Sorry.
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Sir Pseudonymous

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Re: The "America Question"
« Reply #219 on: December 16, 2010, 08:51:18 am »

Again, taxing transactions is fucking retarded. It places a greater burden on the poorest members of society, discourages greater participation in the economy, and does jack fucking shit to deal with the problem of individuals then spending their money in foreign countries (which they'll be encouraged to do, since then they pay less and get to stick it to the Man... who pays for all the essential (but unprofitable) infrastructure their business runs on (paying their costumers, no less, so they get the benefit of functional infrastructure for the price of more people able to buy shit from them).

I agree with the implication that taxes on the majority of people are too high: the lower brackets should have much lower tax rates, and there should be more, higher brackets. And before you go off with bullshit about that "punishing success", try to remember, for a second, that if someone is making so great a sum, then they are probably in the upper echelons of a company. That company requires (at least moderately) educated labor, roads, electricity, water (though these last two have been privatized because derp when have monopolies ever exploited their advantage derp), local security (in the form of police), fire protection, and national security (in the sense of preventing a foreign power from seizing their assets, either overseas or through an invasion) in order to make money, and the money that goes to ensuring those doesn't vanish, it's put right back in the hands of their customers who will then proceed to buy more shit from them, meaning they make more money, while retaining the massive benefits to their business that the government provides.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: The "America Question"
« Reply #220 on: December 16, 2010, 08:58:42 am »

Right now, the Ohio sales tax is only slightly less than the Federal tax I pay on my income, nearly all of which will probably be refunded to me.  Going toward your "Value added Tax," which is nothing more than a deceptive way of saying sales tax, will not reduce the sales tax I pay to the state. It will, however, add much more to the sales tax I pay. If the "Value Added Tax" was anything more than %10 (Which it would have to be to compensate for the lost income tax) My purchasing power would drop drastically. I make a good bit over minimum wage as it is. Only the ultra rich would benefit from a "Value added tax."

To explain further: a bracketed tax on sales is impossible for many reasons. That means that not only will it have to compensate for the ~1200 dollars I pay in taxes a year, but for the ~300000 dollars Joe CEO pays every year. That would require a very large tax on sales. Tarrifs would only make things worse, as everything relies to some degree on imports.
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On Giant In the Playground and Something Awful I am Gnoman.
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Andir

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Re: The "America Question"
« Reply #221 on: December 16, 2010, 10:33:34 am »

Again, taxing transactions is fucking retarded. It places a greater burden on the poorest members of society, discourages greater participation in the economy, and does jack fucking shit...
Such anger and vitriol... have you had your blood pressure checked?
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Sir Pseudonymous

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Re: The "America Question"
« Reply #222 on: December 16, 2010, 11:23:24 am »

Again, taxing transactions is fucking retarded. It places a greater burden on the poorest members of society, discourages greater participation in the economy, and does jack fucking shit...
Such anger and vitriol... have you had your blood pressure checked?
That is not anger, that's adding emphasis where necessary. Why don't you bother reading the rest of the post before responding with snarky misdirection?
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I'm all for eating the heart of your enemies to gain their courage though.

dragonshardz

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Re: The "America Question"
« Reply #223 on: December 16, 2010, 12:30:54 pm »

Leafsnail

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Re: The "America Question"
« Reply #224 on: December 16, 2010, 12:40:37 pm »

Which is exactly as it should be, really.

And yeah.  I like the VAT system in specific.  It's neat, look it up.
I don't think you're actually allowed to lower VAT or equivalents below 15% in the EU.  Which pretty much solves the whole "We're losing out to foreign companies" argument.
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