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[gralcio]

It doesn't help that each expansion continues to raise the level cap -- the time investment (and money! You need to buy 4 games now!) into reaching max level continues to increase, and it doesn't help that there's such a huge disparity between dungeons, pvp, and pve.

I don't want to advertise, but prices were adjusted, especially this week.

[Encased in burning magma]

It doesn't help that each expansion continues to raise the level cap -- the time investment (and money! You need to buy 4 games now!) into reaching max level continues to increase, and it doesn't help that there's such a huge disparity between dungeons, pvp, and pve.

I don't want to advertise, but prices were adjusted, especially this week.

The stocks were depleted in france .
That's a shame, I would have like to buy the battle box as a gift for my mother (10€ is affordable).

[Herbiie]

i'm recovering (clean since halloween before last - cataclysm is gonna ruin WoW) but even so, that is epic. pity they didnt name him 'urist'. XD

Yes but WoW is ruining you

[duckInferno]

I don't think any DF player has the right to bag another game for "ruining" them

Brb dwarf punched baby's arm off

[Tyrius]

i'm recovering (clean since halloween before last - cataclysm is gonna ruin WoW) but even so, that is epic. pity they didnt name him 'urist'. XD

They didn't, but I did Before my old computer crapped out on me I had a Dwarf Hunter named Urist. I was always peeved I couldn't give him green hair...

[Drawde]

On the stat inflation I saw it in Everquest 1 as well (haven't played WoW).  I don't know why there's such an aversion to flat gains, though there's probably a reason for it.

[neek]

None of it makes any sense. Grind so you can grind so you can grind? I mean, it's a millstone set on repeat. Alas. Funny in-game reference, though.

Most games are, ultimately, like this, though; unless you play once and discard. Even for the vast number of things you can attempt in DF there's a metric ton of repetitive action. I don't want to know how many times I've designated the same basic layout for a starting fort.

This, and to the others like it:

Most games are repetitive motions; Pong is move the paddle up, or down. Mario is move right, jump (with some left, up, down in there for mix). WoW, I'd say, has taken it to the absurd. Games generally have a context in addition to a backdrop (aquatic level, mountain level, leather bondage sex shop level, etc.)--the context of all the dungeons and quests are lost or ignored in favor of the loots at the end.  The wonder of design is lost in a lobotomaniacally mechanical repetition, timing, and tactics all for the goal to do it again, just with a different skin.

In Mario 3, you didn't have to grind the tank level ten times to get a t2 leaf drop. In Dwarf Fortress, there is no goal, and the reward isn't a randomized drop--it's losing. And that is the best of fun.

I won't say that Cataclysm is going to ruin WoW--just that WoW isn't the game for me.  I think it's good they do a total content overhaul that affects everyone from first level up.  BC touched on this with the addition of two races; WotlK didn't even.  I'm glad to see it happen.  I might pick it up.  I doubt I will, though.

[Encased in burning magma]

I won't say that Cataclysm is going to ruin WoW--just that WoW isn't the game for me.  I think it's good they do a total content overhaul that affects everyone from first level up.  BC touched on this with the addition of two races; WotlK didn't even.  I'm glad to see it happen.  I might pick it up.  I doubt I will, though.

New 1-60 content is already in, and you don't need cata for it.

[Nameless Archon]

Most games are repetitive motions; Pong is move the paddle up, or down. Mario is move right, jump (with some left, up, down in there for mix). WoW, I'd say, has taken it to the absurd.

For other 'repetitive motions', consider the starting builds of Warcraft or Starcraft. People analyze them to see which methods "come out" earliest, then apply those methods repeatedly until they can do them with no deviation so as to capitalize on mere seconds of timing difference.

[veok]

Most games are repetitive motions; Pong is move the paddle up, or down. Mario is move right, jump (with some left, up, down in there for mix). WoW, I'd say, has taken it to the absurd.

For other 'repetitive motions', consider the starting builds of Warcraft or Starcraft. People analyze them to see which methods "come out" earliest, then apply those methods repeatedly until they can do them with no deviation so as to capitalize on mere seconds of timing difference.

It's a little different in Starcraft, because the driving force of that interaction is the competition, not the repetition. (It's not fun to use the same core builds endlessly, it's fun when you win the game)

[duckInferno]

On the stat inflation I saw it in Everquest 1 as well (haven't played WoW).  I don't know why there's such an aversion to flat gains, though there's probably a reason for it.

The idea behind inflation is so that the expansion areas are fun for everybody.  They need to eclipse the previous endgame's highest content from the get go, so that in your first zone or two you're already picking up new itemry.  Personally I don't think it's needed... I'd much rather have flat gains as you say, but I can see where they're coming from.

[duckInferno]

None of it makes any sense. Grind so you can grind so you can grind? I mean, it's a millstone set on repeat. Alas. Funny in-game reference, though.

Most games are, ultimately, like this, though; unless you play once and discard. Even for the vast number of things you can attempt in DF there's a metric ton of repetitive action. I don't want to know how many times I've designated the same basic layout for a starting fort.

This, and to the others like it:

Most games are repetitive motions; Pong is move the paddle up, or down. Mario is move right, jump (with some left, up, down in there for mix). WoW, I'd say, has taken it to the absurd. Games generally have a context in addition to a backdrop (aquatic level, mountain level, leather bondage sex shop level, etc.)--the context of all the dungeons and quests are lost or ignored in favor of the loots at the end.  The wonder of design is lost in a lobotomaniacally mechanical repetition, timing, and tactics all for the goal to do it again, just with a different skin.

Roughly this.  Anyone can make any game sound bad by simply describing it in operational terms.

TF2, one of the best FPS games to come out in the last five years: "what, you just click on people?  over and over again?"

DF, needs no introduction: "so what you just press s,a,k and the computer kills everything for you?"

WoW, the most popular a-list subscription MMORPG ever created: "what, you just press buttons?  WHAT A GRIND"

[Eric Blank]

Who says people that play wow don't find legitimate entertainment in it? Grinding is truly horrible, but I had played for around three months and made it to being a level 38 rogue without actually grinding, and it was pretty good. You don't need to actually go for the win and play it hardcore, just screw it over and grab whatever cheap gear there is to be found after stabbing ogres in the backside. The world has some good things to be had besides fame, fortune, and dps, mostly being the scenery and

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

a little gap in the mountains in Loch Modan that lets you get all the way to the peaks and visit everything in the mountains around loch modan, Dun Morogh, and the wetlands. They'll ban you if they find out you've been doing this though and may actually fix(ed) it at some point.

Remember to name yourself Urist McWhatever and run around drunk as a duck.

Now if only I wasn't poor and that account wasn't stolen by chinese people looking to fund their gold-selling schemes... Oh well, free(lly illegal) servers can be good, and most cater to people that want to skip the grinding and go straight to the top with the best available equipment, they're just completely broken for a couple days after most updates.

Also, why are we discussing this anyway? We're supposed to be talking about how awesome it is that they reference dwarf fortress sometimes.

[Korva]

Thanks for the screenshots! I saw the two dwarves in Menethil Harbor today who also reference DF, and it made me smile. I've been praising DF to my WoW guildies but so far have not hooked anyone else, though some were curious. They generally don't have time for a new, complex game sadly.

The stat inflation is something that really bugs me.  I can see why it's needed but yeah, I wish they did some kind of massive stat rescaling so that 1-85 is smooth progression all the way.

I hear you. Granted, I'm biased because I strongly dislike it (from an RP standpoint as well as a mechanical one) when a character's strength is tied 90% to their equipment instead of their own innate abilities. The stat mudflation is just crazy. It also means that lowbies don't stand a snowflake's chance in hell against a high-level griefer no matter how many of them there are to pile up on the asshat. I still remember how, in vanilla, I took out a level 60 griefer in Astranaar with a half-dozen or so other 20-30s. That felt awesome. Try that with a level 80 or soon 85 -- all it takes is one press of the AoE button and you're a smear on the ground.

Generally, though, and despite my strong misgivings about some design choices, I feel quite a bit more positive about Cataclysm now than about Wrath. The redesigned areas are fun. More challenging instances will be awesome for mainly casual players who got bored to tears by the brainless AoE-fests in Wrath. Deathwing & co are more interesting to me than Arthas this, Arthas that, Scourge, Scourge and more Scourge. And I am certainly not shedding a tear for the removed stats. I play WoW to play WoW. It's inane that you "need" a degree in mathematics or hump a damn spreadsheet to make the most out of your character. The challenge should be in the encounters themselves, not in agonizing over gems and enchants.

Luckily, being casual means I never have to bother with the spreadsheet-humping. I play the best I can, read up on some guides, and give the middle finger to "GS" and min-maxing.

[Max White]

Oh, this AGAIN?
I swear, this can't be good for business. Now a ton of little kids are going to try and play DF because now 'It's cool', and the forums will be floodeed with spam and suggestions for 'real' graphics.

SCREW YOU BLIZZARD! First SC2 sucks in compared to brood war, now this? That's it, I'm going to get those dumb looking gauge ear piercings and hang around with those annoying hipster kids who think everything was better before they were born, at least they shun anything new.