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Author Topic: Stealth detection SCIENCE  (Read 3789 times)

Urist Da Vinci

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Stealth detection SCIENCE
« on: November 30, 2010, 12:37:25 am »

I tested stealth detection in arena mode using a dog with grand master observer skill, and an elephant with no skills at all. I discovered that the maximum detection range was a 7x7x7 CUBE centered on the dog. Outside this range, the ambushing elephant was never detected. Inside that area, the elephant was instantly detected. I tried this several times, using different creatures and across multiple z-levels. The results were consistent.

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Shape of the detection zone

This suggests that you can safely stealth past enemies, with no ambusher skill, as long as you keep at least 3 tiles of clearance. The detection zone is definitely cubical, not spherical.

Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Stealth detection SCIENCE
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2010, 12:50:39 am »

Also, I should add that if you put a creature into stealth mode in the arena (after taking control of it), it disappears from your god-mode sight when you release control of it. Furthermore, it can't be seen by (v)iewing units or loo(k)ing around, and it disappears from the units list. If you then create and control a second creature nearby, you get the message "You've spotted a Creaturename!". The stealthed opponent always announces its name and kills as well.

This suggests that you could use arena mode to create a ninja team, and then have a creature fight them.

pjwaring

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Re: Stealth detection SCIENCE
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2010, 05:05:36 am »

I tested stealth detection in arena mode using a dog with grand master observer skill, and an elephant with no skills at all. I discovered that the maximum detection range was a 7x7x7 CUBE centered on the dog. Outside this range, the ambushing elephant was never detected. Inside that area, the elephant was instantly detected. I tried this several times, using different creatures and across multiple z-levels. The results were consistent.

Code: [Select]
         
 xxxxxxx
 xxxxxxx
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 xxxCxxx
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Shape of the detection zone

This suggests that you can safely stealth past enemies, with no ambusher skill, as long as you keep at least 3 tiles of clearance. The detection zone is definitely cubical, not spherical.

Makes sense, isn't that the same way they do noise in fortress mode?
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Stealth detection SCIENCE
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2010, 12:12:52 pm »

Makes sense, isn't that the same way they do noise in fortress mode?

Apparently yes, though when I searched the forum and wiki on noise, I couldn't find how that was discovered.

Also, I tried fighting skilled goblin ninja with a human swordsman, but died to a dagger in the back of the head.

EvilFuzzy9

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Re: Stealth detection SCIENCE
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2010, 08:36:28 pm »

...

Also, I tried fighting skilled goblin ninja with a human swordsman, but died to a dagger in the back of the head.

How appropriate.  :P
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Flaede

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Re: Stealth detection SCIENCE
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2010, 07:59:08 pm »

This is why stealth + throwing = broken.
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Toady typically doesn't do things by half measures.  As evidenced by turning "make hauling work better" into "implement mine carts with physics".
There are many issues with this statement.
[/quote]

noppa354

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Re: Stealth detection SCIENCE
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2010, 08:47:24 pm »

now run tests for varying skill levels, does grand master let you stab em in the head without being seen?
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Knigel

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Re: Stealth detection SCIENCE
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2010, 08:49:59 pm »

now run tests for varying skill levels, does grand master let you stab em in the head without being seen?

I remember in one recent version I could attack someone for several turns without being seen, with only moderately high ambusher skill.
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Flaede

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Re: Stealth detection SCIENCE
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2010, 09:34:25 pm »

now run tests for varying skill levels, does grand master let you stab em in the head without being seen?

Legendary sure does. You can charge someone and knock them into the next square to get at the treasure chest below them, loot the chest, and then get away unseen.
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Toady typically doesn't do things by half measures.  As evidenced by turning "make hauling work better" into "implement mine carts with physics".
There are many issues with this statement.
[/quote]

isabuea

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Re: Stealth detection SCIENCE
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2010, 10:23:39 pm »

can you try testing wether or not wallks effect the range of detection. if you can surround the dog with walls and still have a perfect 3 tile radius could lead to no waste animal detection units.
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Knigel

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Re: Stealth detection SCIENCE
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2010, 10:28:09 pm »

can you try testing wether or not wallks effect the range of detection. if you can surround the dog with walls and still have a perfect 3 tile radius could lead to no waste animal detection units.

It would be no waste if the dog is a legendary observer (a skill that is very hard to train) and will calmly wait in one tile all day.

Also, have you tried to see what effect, if any, z-levels have on this?
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Stealth detection SCIENCE
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2010, 03:10:06 am »

Further testing was done, based on the above posts.

Stealth detection DOES require line-of-sight, so you can't safely encase the dog in walls. You can spot through fortifications (tested) and possibly windows (untested).

The game does not appear to give dogs any special detection advantage, though you could mod dogs in your game with [NATURAL_SKILL:SITUATIONAL_AWARENESS:10]. The natural skill tokens are used to give default skills to megabeasts like minotaurs, hydras, and dragons. Hydras, with 7 heads, are now correctly very naturally gifted at stealth detection.

If you are 4 or more z-levels above or below the observer, you can NOT be spotted. You CAN be spotted if you are 3 levels below and 3 tiles northwest of the observer.

If you are grand master in ambusher and your opponent can't observe, you can do this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The game currently doesn't change the combat targeting menu to respect being undetectable and standing right behind someone. A better technique for now, if you are a legendary ambusher, is to strangle the target unconscious and then one-shot them with your knife. Attacking does not increase the chance of detection over simply standing right next to them!

It also appears that high observer skill trumps high ambush skill - A grand master ambusher was always immediately spotted 3 tiles away from a grand master observer.

Flaede

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Re: Stealth detection SCIENCE
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2010, 05:11:16 am »

Something to not: Even low level legendary ambush is not enough to reliable sneak away from bogeymen.
I was able to hid from a Hydra (one turn one tile away. Any longer and I was caught) but bogeymen saw me if I was within 2, possibly 3 tiles from them.
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Toady typically doesn't do things by half measures.  As evidenced by turning "make hauling work better" into "implement mine carts with physics".
There are many issues with this statement.
[/quote]