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[Loud Whispers]

I recall it being a long-held consensus that Neanderthals didn't really have much of what we'd consider culture, but recently there's also been a paper about them being the likely authors of the oldest cave paintings found to date, so that might call into question certain ideas about what they were capable of.

Pike suggests that such reluctance to believe that Neanderthals were creating cave art may have less to do with methodological disputes than plain old species-ism. “People are very prejudiced against Neanderthals,” he says.

Paola Villa, an archaeologist who studies Neanderthal culture at the University of Colorado Boulder, says that Neanderthals have an undeserved reputation as moronic brutes. She says that since their bodies were “archaic” in the sense of having features of older hominids — such as heavier bones and pronounced brow ridges — everyone assumed they were “behaviourally archaic” as well. “They were stereotyped as knuckle-dragging dimwits,” she says.

60,000 year old racism lmao

[martinuzz]

I recall it being a long-held consensus that Neanderthals didn't really have much of what we'd consider culture, but recently there's also been a paper about them being the likely authors of the oldest cave paintings found to date, so that might call into question certain ideas about what they were capable of.

Yeah, a very recent studies published in Science overturns the prevalent idea in academic discourse that they lacked culture. Half a year ago you would have been completely correct, redwallzyl, but there's been a change of viewpoint since.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/wetenschap/beeld-van-domme-neanderthalers-kantelt-ze-maakten-grotkunst-ver-voordat-de-moderne-mens-europa-bereikte~a4572881/
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-02357-8

The Science article can probably only be found by those rich enough to gate the paywall.

[ChairmanPoo]

I recall it being a long-held consensus that Neanderthals didn't really have much of what we'd consider culture, but recently there's also been a  paper about them being the likely authors of the oldest cave paintings found to date, so that might call into question certain ideas about what they were capable of.

Yeah, a very recent studies published in Science overturns the prevalent idea in academic discourse that they lacked culture. Half a year ago you would have been completely correct, redwallzyl, but there's been a change of viewpoint since.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/wetenschap/beeld-van-domme-neanderthalers-kantelt-ze-maakten-grotkunst-ver-voordat-de-moderne-mens-europa-bereikte~a4572881/
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-02357-8

The Science article can probably only be found by those rich enough to gate the paywall.

You two posted exactly the same thing 

[Maximum Spin]

It's worth noting that

There is no solid evidence of Neanderthals being culturally modern.

is completely accurate. There is some, unclear evidence.

[Harry Baldman]

Yeah, two solid findings don't exactly overturn established paradigm, but it doesn't make the findings any less interesting.

[Maximum Spin]

Yeah, two solid findings don't exactly overturn established paradigm, but it doesn't make the findings any less interesting.

Indeed. To be honest, I've been in the minority who thought Neandertals were (reasonably) culturally modern for years.

[Eric Blank]

Ive found this article relating to ochre use at a neanderthal site dated to around ~220-250k + or - 40k years ago: http://www.pnas.org/content/109/6/1889

The researchers tested their null hypothesis that the hematite occurs naturally at the site by searching geological and archaeological records of digs in the region, none of which turned up any further hematite/ochre present in the riverbed or surroundings. The nearest source is 40km away. At one source site for hematite, flint fragments from the Maas region was found, suggesting movement between these two sites. Ochre particles also exclusively coat the outside of sediments that were deposited there, suggesting they must have been deposited after the clay and silt were deposited. So thats neat.

But that more suggests the presence of trade or sourcing materials far from home rather than warfare or conflict. Though if trade is beneficial, that implies your home lacks resources someone else has in excess, which is kinda an excuse for conflict if relations sour. Nothing about conflict at the site in question in the Maas river district though.

[Dunamisdeos]

I'm rather of the opinion that 40000 years is a really short period of time evolution-wise, and that technological discovery is not an indication of potential intelligence. Of note, I am not a historian or archaeologist or neander-thologist.

regardless, I'd be surprised if paleolithic man did not have a culture, even if they didn't have sweeping metropolises. There are examples of modern humans living in a primitive, tribal culture even today.

[Trekkin]

There are examples of modern humans living in a primitive, tribal culture even today.

EDIT: How are you quantifying how primitive a culture is? Because arguably America's pretty tribal right now.

[Dunamisdeos]

Nah it's not, there's a definition of tribal society in that it is essentially pre-civilization.

Wikipedia phrases it as:

"A tribe is viewed, developmentally or economic, historically, as a social group existing outside of or before the development of states. A tribe is a group of distinct people, dependent on their land for their livelihood, who are largely self-sufficient, and not integrated into the national society. "

Anyway there are people in the world right now who live under these conditions and it isn't because they are fundamentally incapable, so why not back then? 40k isn't such a long time, though in the grim dark past there is only war they could totes have had some manner of culture.

I'm not saying there totes was, since there is a lack of sufficient, clear evidence. But it's not impossible, and could even be reasonably considered likely.

[redwallzyl]

A tribe is a type of social organization. Its a bit of a blurry thing though. I could write a paper correcting peoples misconceptions about such terms.

Neanderthals do not nessisarly have to be culturally modern or not. Personally I am of the opinion that they much like humans transitioned from anatomic modernity to cultural modernity but were wiped out it grew to modern human levels.

[Dunamisdeos]

I'm mostly sure that's what I was probably trying to say.

[scriver]

Yeah, two solid findings don't exactly overturn established paradigm, but it doesn't make the findings any less interesting.

Indeed. To be honest, I've been in the minority who thought Neandertals were (reasonably) culturally modern for years.

Maximum Spin goes back in time to Neanderthal days.
MS: "Oh hello there old chap how are you doing?"
Neanderthal: "lol bae cash me ousside"

[Trekkin]

Yeah, two solid findings don't exactly overturn established paradigm, but it doesn't make the findings any less interesting.

Indeed. To be honest, I've been in the minority who thought Neandertals were (reasonably) culturally modern for years.

Maximum Spin goes back in time to Neanderthal days.
MS: "Oh hello there old chap how are you doing?"
Neanderthal: "lol bae cash me ousside"

Maximum Spin is my new favorite theory for the root cause of the Neanderthal extinction.

[Maximum Spin]

Yeah, two solid findings don't exactly overturn established paradigm, but it doesn't make the findings any less interesting.

Indeed. To be honest, I've been in the minority who thought Neandertals were (reasonably) culturally modern for years.

Maximum Spin goes back in time to Neanderthal days.
MS: "Oh hello there old chap how are you doing?"
Neanderthal: "lol bae cash me ousside"

Maximum Spin is my new favorite theory for the root cause of the Neanderthal extinction.

can neither confirm nor deny