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[smjjames]

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Western 1st world + Hong Kong China and Japan Brazil, Chile and Venezuela Eastern europe
Total 22 17 15 27
War with both sides justified. Fight! 1 5 4 4
Fight if conscripted 3 6 5 10
Unsure/ it depends 3 1 2 4
Avoid fighting 4 4 2 6
Protest against the war 11 1 2 3
Invasion by an aggressor. Fight! 6 5 6 8
Fight if conscripted 6 9 5 16
Unsure/ it depends 7 0 3 3
Avoid fighting 3 3 0 0
Protest against the war 0 0 1 0
Attack on a neighbouring country. Fight! 0 2 1 4
Fight if conscripted 2 2 3 4
Unsure/ it depends 5 6 4 11
Avoid fighting 7 5 2 6
Protest against the war 8 2 5 2


Edit: Okay, using the code tags doesn't actually work.

Just out of curiosity, how many of those Western 1st world were American?

[Rose]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

-snip-

This could be a related idea to how culture generally orients (and such).
Knit tie seems to be in a very collective culture :O I can extremely relate, as its a thing that's so common here that...I thought it was the norm everywhere at a very young age (before I got into History and the World...)...along with many other ideals that support aid of the fellowman.

An absolutely correct observation, Tiruin! I once conducted a sort of psychological experiment: asked my friends from all over the world today what they think would be the right thing for a young man to do if his country is fighting over territory with a neighbouring country, with both of the countries having equally valid moral and political reasons for waging war? My friends from the western 1st world countries and, surprisingly, Hong-Kong, replied, mostly, along the lines of "stop the war". My friends from Eastern Europe, Asia and Brazil replied, mostly, "go fight".

What if a young man's country is being attacked? Individualists said "defend", with some being uncertain. Collectivists - "I die but I do not surrender!"

And if a young man's country is instead invading another country for no clear reason? Individualists were steadfastly against fighting. Collectivists were divided, about half said that they would fight, because whether or not their country was wrong, it was their country, while the rest said that they would oppose the war if it was clearly criminal in nature.

So yeah, different values galore.

EDIT: Is there a thread BTW? I am so itching to write textwall to how living in UK is different from living in Russia on a deep, personal level.

Interesting. Do you still have all the data you collected?

Sorry, I don't know how to copy Excel sheets as pictures 

		Western 1st world + Hong Kong	China and Japan	Brazil, Chile and Venezuela	Eastern europe
	Total	22	17	15	27
War with both sides justified.	Fight!	1	5	4	4
	Fight if conscripted	3	6	5	10
	Unsure/ it depends	3	1	2	4
	Avoid fighting	4	4	2	6
	Protest against the war	11	1	2	3
Invasion by an aggressor.	Fight!	6	5	6	8
	Fight if conscripted	6	9	5	16
	Unsure/ it depends	7	0	3	3
	Avoid fighting	3	3	0	0
	Protest against the war	0	0	1	0
Attack on a neighbouring country.	Fight!	0	2	1	4
	Fight if conscripted	2	2	3	4
	Unsure/ it depends	5	6	4	11
	Avoid fighting	7	5	2	6
	Protest against the war	8	2	5	2

Fixed that into a table.

That is annoying bbcode to use, truly.

[Knit tie]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

-snip-

This could be a related idea to how culture generally orients (and such).
Knit tie seems to be in a very collective culture :O I can extremely relate, as its a thing that's so common here that...I thought it was the norm everywhere at a very young age (before I got into History and the World...)...along with many other ideals that support aid of the fellowman.

An absolutely correct observation, Tiruin! I once conducted a sort of psychological experiment: asked my friends from all over the world today what they think would be the right thing for a young man to do if his country is fighting over territory with a neighbouring country, with both of the countries having equally valid moral and political reasons for waging war? My friends from the western 1st world countries and, surprisingly, Hong-Kong, replied, mostly, along the lines of "stop the war". My friends from Eastern Europe, Asia and Brazil replied, mostly, "go fight".

What if a young man's country is being attacked? Individualists said "defend", with some being uncertain. Collectivists - "I die but I do not surrender!"

And if a young man's country is instead invading another country for no clear reason? Individualists were steadfastly against fighting. Collectivists were divided, about half said that they would fight, because whether or not their country was wrong, it was their country, while the rest said that they would oppose the war if it was clearly criminal in nature.

So yeah, different values galore.

EDIT: Is there a thread BTW? I am so itching to write textwall to how living in UK is different from living in Russia on a deep, personal level.

Interesting. Do you still have all the data you collected?

Sorry, I don't know how to copy Excel sheets as pictures 

		Western 1st world + Hong Kong	China and Japan	Brazil, Chile and Venezuela	Eastern europe
	Total	22	17	15	27
War with both sides justified.	Fight!	1	5	4	4
	Fight if conscripted	3	6	5	10
	Unsure/ it depends	3	1	2	4
	Avoid fighting	4	4	2	6
	Protest against the war	11	1	2	3
Invasion by an aggressor.	Fight!	6	5	6	8
	Fight if conscripted	6	9	5	16
	Unsure/ it depends	7	0	3	3
	Avoid fighting	3	3	0	0
	Protest against the war	0	0	1	0
Attack on a neighbouring country.	Fight!	0	2	1	4
	Fight if conscripted	2	2	3	4
	Unsure/ it depends	5	6	4	11
	Avoid fighting	7	5	2	6
	Protest against the war	8	2	5	2

Fixed that into a table.

That is annoying bbcode to use, truly.

Japa you are amazing.

Just out of curiosity, how many of those Western 1st world were American?

Seven.

[Bohandas]

I, like most Russians, was raised on WW2 stories that exalted the whole "a hero is whoever goes into battle even after seeing his buddy get torn in half by a shell" angle of war, and so, frankly, I don't really care if my death will be meaningful - it's the fact itself of going to war and fighting, of being able to look people in the eyes when they ask me about what I've done to help, of not sitting here and doing nothing, that matters.

Personally I've always felt that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were World War II's most compelling military story. Not the pacific campaign mind you, just Hiroshima and Nagasaki (in the modern world the pacific campaign would be wholly redundant with intercontinental ballistic missiles).

 What I took away was having better weapons trumps valor.

Actual fighting is for cavemen and suicidal idiots.

I would not be willing to fight for my country, but I would be willing to fire a missile, fly a drone, set down mines (provided that they were well made and not liable to go off by accident), or poison people's food (provided that I didn't have t0 be anywhere nearby when they got it). They really should work on making those drones more completely autonomous though.

[Helgoland]

What I am considering doing (and I am going to start slow, with humanitaian aid convoys and such, if only because of my parents) I do not consider particularly attractive or fun, but rather a grim necessity and my duty. I, like most Russians, was raised on WW2 stories that exalted the whole "a hero is whoever goes into battle even after seeing his buddy get torn in half by a shell" angle of war, and so, frankly, I don't really care if my death will be meaningful - it's the fact itself of going to war and fighting, of being able to look people in the eyes when they ask me about what I've done to help, of not sitting here and doing nothing, that matters.

But I am really curious here: you said you consider Ukrainians to be your people?

That depression bit was just an added bit of explanation... "My people" refers to people you have a connection wth, right? People belonging to the same collective, people who you share some deep-down characteristics with. And that's why I'd consider those fighting in Ukraine 'my people' - they aren't defeatists who put up with injustice and aggression, they go out and fight for all the things that led to the storming of the Bastille. And so I feel a connection, just like I feel a connection to the secular rebels in Syria and to the Kurds of the region. Just like I felt a connection to the Libyans fighting Gaddhafi. Calling a group 'my people' just because of ethnicity is a rather, well, not out-dated, but dusty concept, don't you think?

EDIT: Is there a thread BTW? I am so itching to write textwall to how living in UK is different from living in Russia on a deep, personal level.

I've been meaning to ask you this! But I feared you'd feel belittled...

[~Neri]

I would not be willing to fight in the slightest. I'm not interested in dying and I have too much empathy to see anyone as "bad" and therefore killable. I'm fine with nonlethally disabling a person attacking me on the street, but I'm not going to go shooting random people on the other side of the bloody planet in a war I don't care about. Nor would I defend the country unless my life was on the line. Meaning the enemy would need to be flipping insane and all murdercrazy.

[Helgoland]

So the guy that beheaded that journalist would be fair game? Go grab a rifle, go fight with the Kurds!

[~Neri]

Hah no.

If it isn't affecting me or is unlikely to affect me, I'm not interested.

[Knit tie]

What I am considering doing (and I am going to start slow, with humanitaian aid convoys and such, if only because of my parents) I do not consider particularly attractive or fun, but rather a grim necessity and my duty. I, like most Russians, was raised on WW2 stories that exalted the whole "a hero is whoever goes into battle even after seeing his buddy get torn in half by a shell" angle of war, and so, frankly, I don't really care if my death will be meaningful - it's the fact itself of going to war and fighting, of being able to look people in the eyes when they ask me about what I've done to help, of not sitting here and doing nothing, that matters.

But I am really curious here: you said you consider Ukrainians to be your people?

That depression bit was just an added bit of explanation... "My people" refers to people you have a connection wth, right? People belonging to the same collective, people who you share some deep-down characteristics with. And that's why I'd consider those fighting in Ukraine 'my people' - they aren't defeatists who put up with injustice and aggression, they go out and fight for all the things that led to the storming of the Bastille. And so I feel a connection, just like I feel a connection to the secular rebels in Syria and to the Kurds of the region. Just like I felt a connection to the Libyans fighting Gaddhafi. Calling a group 'my people' just because of ethnicity is a rather, well, not out-dated, but dusty concept, don't you think?

That's very noble of you, Helgo. And I agree - "people I can get behind" was the meaning I put in that phrase, "my people". It's a little known fact in the anglophonic community, but Russia has over 100 diffrent ethnicities, most of which can and do consider each other brothers, so we are much more egalitarian than one might think.

EDIT: Is there a thread BTW? I am so itching to write textwall to how living in UK is different from living in Russia on a deep, personal level.

I've been meaning to ask you this! But I feared you'd feel belittled...

Why should I feel belittled? And believe me, I have a lot to say. Especially in comparison to my experiences in the tightly locked, insular community of my boarding school, around which I based off my previous views of the Western way of thinking.

[Helgoland]

EDIT: Is there a thread BTW? I am so itching to write textwall to how living in UK is different from living in Russia on a deep, personal level.

I've been meaning to ask you this! But I feared you'd feel belittled...

Why should I feel belittled? And believe me, I have a lot to say. Especially in comparison to my experiences in the tightly locked, insular community of my boarding school, around which I based off my previous views of the Western way of thinking.

Well, you went silent for months, and then came back a new man... One might be led to the conclusion that Scotland did not treat you well, resulting in your political 180. But people generally don't like it when it's pointed out to them that their surroundings determine a big part of their political outlook - I myself get fairly annoyed each time a certain good friend of mine calls me a 1% kid. Hes right to a degree, but he's intelligentsia as well... For him it's a sport, really, and it's all in good fun, but that kind of sentiment is difficult to relate over the internet.
So yes, do make a thread! And send me a notification! One of the prime reasons I found the Ukraine threads so valuable is that they provided an inside perspective on the goings-on.

[MaximumZero]

I sort of third. Same but different: I'll have nothing to do with international conflicts (and I think that if a politician wants to go to war they should go straight to the front lines,) but I wouldn't be against seriously injuring or killing someone if they attack me or my family personally.

[Knit tie]

-snip-

I don't really think that starting an entire thread for another self-indulgent quasi-hipster story-of-my-life post is good manners, sorry, Helgo.

But long story short, before going to Scotland, I spent 3 years in a boarding school, TASIS, which was simultaneously very isolated, very pretentious and squeaky clean. So my subconscious understanding of the western peoples' way of thinking formed there based on the words and actions of my teachers and friends, who were all wonderful examples of sheltered white rich-to-upper-middle-class Americans: somewhat moralising and entitled, but generally compassionate and harmless, prone to getting shocked by stories of others' hardships and sometimes detached from reality. In other words, kind but ignorant noblemen of the modern age, far detached from the wild excesses and the arrogant contempt of their classmates from the 2nd and the 3rd world. So before I came to Scotland, I found it genuinely hard to believe that those very same western people who considered lack of hot water an emotionally scarring event could be as bloodthirsty, as amoral and as nauseatingly mendacious as the people we have back in Russia, hence my cautious anti-Russian stance.

[LordSlowpoke]

-snip-

I don't really think that starting an entire thread for another self-indulgent quasi-hipster story-of-my-life post is good manners, sorry, Helgo.

but that's what this forum is all about

you're not really new, you have no excuse for not knowing this

[Helgoland]

Was that a Russian bording school?

And I kinda wanted to know about your time in Scotland, since the change of political opinion is usually more interesting than their existence...

[Knit tie]

Was that a Russian bording school?

And I kinda wanted to know about your time in Scotland, since the change of political opinion is usually more interesting than their existence...

No, it was an American boarding school in Switzerland.