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[BlackFlyme]

Hate to be snarky, but you can learn things outside of a classroom if learning is your only goal

The problem I have with this type of teaching is that if you were to take away everyone's calculator and replace it with a standard one, they wouldn't be able to do anything with it, since the calculator literally does everything for them, but everyone who uses a normal calculator gets shafted because we aren't told how to actually get the answers.

Take away a fisherman's fishing pole and they can't do much either.

Unless they're badass and fish with their hands.

Yes, but there are other methods of catching fish. Like nets, or spears. Beards, if you have one long enough. We aren't taught other methods, there is only the calculator, and it must be obeyed.

Like I said, I had to Google simple equations that should be taught instead of pressing magic buttons on a calculator. The majority of them are really simple, and I've had an easier time with my calculator by entering the equations than other classmates who couldn't even remember what some of the letters on their calculator stood for.

Also, no-one else is concerned about the fact that the multiple choice questions are worth several marks each? There's no middle ground there, either you get all the marks with the correct answer or you get no marks.

[MagmaMcFry]

If I would create a math exam, I'd require the answers to be in paragraphs. Writing down numbers is easy, everyone can do that (let's not even talk about checking boxes). True understanding of the materials is shown by being able to describe the entire reasoning behind the answer in full sentences.

It's people like you who are working to undermine me. I do well on tests because I don't explain my reasoning, because my reasoning is highly spurious and deeply flawed; I just happen to be good at working out the answer anyway. I shine on multiple choice for this reason.

Obviously the test would have only, say, 3 questions or so, so you wouldn't have that much to write. I know it would be frustrating for most people, but it gives them the feeling of having done actual effort for their rewards, and that feeling is the most important motivating factor of all, in everything ever. Also, it trains people to organize their thoughts, so they won't fail and give up entirely the instant they stumble upon a question they can't quite completely solve in their head. Seriously. I've experienced it myself, and I got actual self-worth issues for a while because of that.

[kaijyuu]

it gives them the feeling of having done actual effort for their rewards, and that feeling is the most important motivating factor of all, in everything ever.

I have never once felt anything like that.

I feel much happier when I find a simple, elegant, and creative solution to a problem than I do when I power on through to the end.

[MagmaMcFry]

it gives them the feeling of having done actual effort for their rewards, and that feeling is the most important motivating factor of all, in everything ever.

I have never once felt anything like that.

I feel much happier when I find a simple, elegant, and creative solution to a problem than I do when I power on through to the end.

Finding a simple, elegant and creative solution is totally fine in my books, and it would actually be much more rewarding than slugging the default method (since you saved effort AND had a brilliant idea), just be warned (again from personal experience) that there WILL be that moment when you can't cheat your way through via a creative solution, so you do actually need to be confident in your understanding of the default theory. Note that by "understanding" I don't just mean understanding how to find the solution given a specific kind of problem, but also understanding why the method you are using actually solves the problem.

[MagmaMcFry]

The problem I have with this type of teaching is that if you were to take away everyone's calculator and replace it with a standard one, they wouldn't be able to do anything with it, since the calculator literally does everything for them, but everyone who uses a normal calculator gets shafted because we aren't told how to actually get the answers.

If you post some of these questions in the maths help thread, I'd be more than happy to make you able to solve those problems with only pencil and paper.

[Elephant Parade]

The problem I have with this type of teaching is that if you were to take away everyone's calculator and replace it with a standard one, they wouldn't be able to do anything with it, since the calculator literally does everything for them, but everyone who uses a normal calculator gets shafted because we aren't told how to actually get the answers.

When I was in 6th form, you had both calculator and non-calculator tests. You also had to show your working, else you'd only get one or two marks. The calculator test also had much more complicated algebra, calculus and what-have you. No idea what it's like where you come from.

Showing my work is my bane. I can do math pretty fast (without a calculator), but it takes me forever to explain how.

[BlackFlyme]

I have all the equations I need, thankfully. I don't have too much trouble with the course, it's the fact that in order to actually do anything I had to find it on my own, with my only other option being to spend money on something that will only see use in this course. The text doesn't even have the equations, so that's money wasted. The damn book revolves around the calculator.

Except I don't know how to find the interest rate within an annuity, I couldn't find that online.

[Lagslayer]

The problem I have with this type of teaching is that if you were to take away everyone's calculator and replace it with a standard one, they wouldn't be able to do anything with it, since the calculator literally does everything for them, but everyone who uses a normal calculator gets shafted because we aren't told how to actually get the answers.

When I was in 6th form, you had both calculator and non-calculator tests. You also had to show your working, else you'd only get one or two marks. The calculator test also had much more complicated algebra, calculus and what-have you. No idea what it's like where you come from.

I think I got out of school just in time to avoid this. And to the people that called me backwards for voicing my concerns on this issue last year: Who's the nutter now?!?!

I know i got out just before it got way more expensive. Now-a-days, the kids in this area need to buy hundreds of dollars of extra materials for the teachers to use.

[BlackFlyme]

The problem I have with this type of teaching is that if you were to take away everyone's calculator and replace it with a standard one, they wouldn't be able to do anything with it, since the calculator literally does everything for them, but everyone who uses a normal calculator gets shafted because we aren't told how to actually get the answers.

When I was in 6th form, you had both calculator and non-calculator tests. You also had to show your working, else you'd only get one or two marks. The calculator test also had much more complicated algebra, calculus and what-have you. No idea what it's like where you come from.

I think I got out of school just in time to avoid this. And to the people that called me backwards for voicing my concerns on this issue last year: Who's the nutter now?!?!

I know i got out just before it got way more expensive. Now-a-days, the kids in this area need to buy hundreds of dollars of extra materials for the teachers to use.

Sadly, our teacher doesn't even have the magical calculator, he's reading everything off of some sheets on his desk.

I think he writes them himself; his answers are frequently wrong.

[MagmaMcFry]

Yeah, I'm personally of the opinion that if you CAN get it right consistently, you shouldn't need to show your working out, barring using a calculator (for obvious reasons).

Apparently, though, that's not enough.

Using calculators to solve problems for you ensures that you're pretty much boned when the type of problem changes ever so slightly. Imagine the problem "x²+3*x=4, solve for x". Just whip out your calculator, input the numbers into your quadratic equation solver, get two results, done. Now solve the problem x²+a*x=4. Your quadratic equation solver can't handle the a? You're fucked, congrats. You actually need to know the quadratic formula (or at least know how to derive it) to solve this problem. Same thing applies to every type of problem you get in high school. Take a random problem you can solve with a calculator. Now replace one of the numbers with an a. Suddenly your calculator is a useless pile of trash.

Now doing it in your head has the same type of inherent danger, albeit with a higher threshold. Imagine a problem requiring you to sum bⁿ for all positive integers n. If you know a formula for that, you can simply insert the formula and do that in your head, the answer is b/(1-b). Now imagine a problem requiring the sum of all n*bⁿ. You can't work that out via a formula since you've never seen such a series before, but you could in fact write that as an infinite sum of infinite sums and get b/(1-b)² as a result. Now my point is that the confidence in trying such counterintuitive approaches is not at all dependent on talent, it depends solely on the amount of experience you have with similar situations, and you get much, much more experience from a problem if you take the time and write down the exact thought process leading to the solution (and if the test requires written solutions, the students will practice written solutions, thereby gaining such experience). Talking from my own experience here, and trust me, I have a lot of that.

[Lagslayer]

I had a math teacher who gave partial credit for showing your work, even if you got the final answer wrong. Basically, she marked off on each individual step you did incorrectly.

[Superblackcat]

Math Exam Tuesday...

Freaking Calc

[MagmaMcFry]

-snip-

Hence the 'get it right consistently', which includes changing the equations. And I said 'barring using a calculator', as in 'If you use a calculator, you should show your working'

But not enforcing text-based answers causes people to not learn text-based answering. And not learning text-based answering imparts a ton less experience at these problems. And not having experience greatly diminishes your performance on the test. Do you see where I'm going with this? The text-basedness is not there for the talented people, it's there to help the untalented help themselves (and even the talented can still benefit from such experience, if only for the added sense of achievement that you need to transit to effort-based ability before your talent runs out).

[MagmaMcFry]

-snip-

Hence the 'get it right consistently', which includes changing the equations. And I said 'barring using a calculator', as in 'If you use a calculator, you should show your working'

But not enforcing text-based answers causes people to not learn text-based answering. And not learning text-based answering imparts a ton less experience at these problems. And not having experience greatly diminishes your performance on the test. Do you see where I'm going with this? The text-basedness is not there for the talented people, it's there to help the untalented help themselves (and even the talented can still benefit from such experience, if only for the added sense of achievement that you need to transit to effort-based ability before your talent runs out).

I... ah...

DON'T see where you're going with this. Text-basedness... No. I don't see that. I mean, obviously, TEACH the techniques and things, make sure people understand them, and encourage them to use it just in case they screw up, so they can see their mistake, but I don't think they should enforce having to write down the techniques. Again, barring calculator tests.

This here is exactly what's happening. Text-basedness makes sure that the testees know that their understanding is what is being tested, not their ability to enter numbers into a formula. Knowing that their understanding is being tested forces them to understand the material instead of simply memorizing a formula and hoping it's the correct one when they actually use it. It shows them that mathematics is about understanding, not about formulas. And as soon as they properly have the ability to understand, they're basically set for life in maths.

Also, "understanding" is a weird word now.

[Reudh]

I'm surprised nobody has posted n this about my !!INTENSE!! hatred of cats.

Ohaidere!

Oh hai SuperBlackCat!