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[Malaclypse]

I am working on creating a small[ish] mod that introduces guns to the dwarven arsenal of deadly joyful killing instruments, and wanted to open a discussion about it to help me make some decisions about various aspects which I am still working on (and possibly get information on a couple things).

One of the ideas central to this mod is that guns should be powerful, but very expensive and involved to make. I do not want them to make all the existing weapons and armors and such obsolete. This is, of course, somewhat unrealistic- historically, they were cheap to make, easy to use (because little skill was involved in the operation of early guns), and eventually made obsolete first armor and later most other weapons that had predated the gun. Regardless, I do not really care. They do not need to be entirely realistic (or even very realistic at all), and they should be taken in the context of the game; it would not be much fun if they made everything else useless compared to them. Above all else, they should be FUN.

Initially, my idea was that the weapons themselves should be constructed only of steel, and fire only lead balls. Unfortunately, after extensive testing I have found that making lead projectiles do anything useful using the game's weapon mechanics is rather difficult- especially penetrating armor, which is one thing that I think is essential to the idea and point of guns in the context of the level of technology of the arms and armor in the game.

Although I have found a way to make lead projectiles effective (after extensive testing and number tweaking), the numbers involved are rather ridiculous and inelegant (though they -do- work). This being the case, I -can- complete the mod using only lead projectiles. However, after a bit of research I have found that historically, other metals were also used for both the guns (I am using the term 'gun' to refer not just to gun-ish guns, but also cannons and hand cannons) and their ammunition.

After some consideration, I am still not entirely sure whether I want to restrict what metals they can be made of to a specific list, or have them simply use the standard weapons-grade metals. I have a few ideas, which I will list in a moment, but I would really like some feedback on this, to see what ideas other people may have, and get outside opinions/input.

Here are some ideas about the materials used:

• I kinda really want to make lead projectiles effective (though I may end up deciding to give up on them), so one idea I had is to have a couple [made up] alloys that can also be used for the ammo. They would be waaay more expensive to manufacture compared to lead ammo, but significantly more effective. Three alloys come to mind: a platinum/lead alloy, a steel/lead alloy, and an adamantine/lead alloy. They would, again, be very expensive, but their properties would be a blend of those of lead and the other alloyed metal (the specifics of which would require tweaking in order to keep them relatively balanced).
• It occurred to me that a lead/copper alloy might be used, since copper is used to sheath (modern) bullets. At least it would have some sort of roots in reality, and would make a product comparable to the lead ammo in cost but yield better results in combat.
• Another idea is to use specific other metals for them, and perhaps have a different set of metals for the guns and ammo. These would probably include iron, steel, perhaps bronze... maybe copper too. I am not really sure. It might take some testing to see how things work out, and possibly (if I feel inclined to spend the time, or if someone wants to do it for me) some research on what was used historically (if the decision is to try for relative historical accuracy with regards to materials).
• Of course, there is the option of simply using the standard list of weapons grade metals, but that might clash with the idea of making them expensive and hard to make. I certainly am not fond of the idea of a copper gun being an effective weapon.
• With regards to the guns themselves, I think that I want to either go with historically accurate metals, or just use expensive metals to make them more expensive to produce (probably only steel and adamantine, in the latter case, which I am sort of leaning toward).

As far as the other aspects of the production of guns and ammo, I have mostly worked that out; I borrowed a little from the Civilization Forge mod, particularly when it came to the tile layouts for the buildings involved in gun and ammo production (I am too lazy to spend the time making original building designs when there are perfectly good ones out there already, especially considering the time it takes to make them and the fact that this mod is relatively small and the way the buildings look is basically irrelevant). When I finish the mod, I plan on making note of what parts of it came from where, in the case of things I didn't make myself.

Currently, aside from what metals to allow for the guns and ammo, the only thing I need is information on is the physical properties of gunpowder, in order to make the material definitions in the raws. If someone could provide me with that, point me toward somewhere I can find it, or, even better, write the material definitions for the raw file, I would be very, very grateful.

If anyone wants to see the raw files I've made for this so far, let me know and I'll post them here.

Also, does anyone know if there is a way to require water as a reagent in a reaction? This is not essential to the mod, but it would be nice to include it for one of the reactions.

[Johnfalcon99977]

Perhaps make it a bit realistic. Make guns DEADLY inaccurate. The first guns bullets were big, but constantly missed unless used in close-quarters. Thats a good way to tone down guns and make them historically accurate at the same time!

[inEQUALITY]

Perhaps make it a bit realistic. Make guns DEADLY inaccurate. The first guns bullets were big, but constantly missed unless used in close-quarters. Thats a good way to tone down guns and make them historically accurate at the same time!

You can't mod ranged weapon accuracy or rate of fire, unfortunately.

[Johnfalcon99977]

Perhaps make it a bit realistic. Make guns DEADLY inaccurate. The first guns bullets were big, but constantly missed unless used in close-quarters. Thats a good way to tone down guns and make them historically accurate at the same time!

You can't mod ranged weapon accuracy or rate of fire, unfortunately.

You can't? Damn it. Some one report that to the suggestion threads now.

[Malaclypse]

Perhaps make it a bit realistic. Make guns DEADLY inaccurate. The first guns bullets were big, but constantly missed unless used in close-quarters. Thats a good way to tone down guns and make them historically accurate at the same time!

You can't mod ranged weapon accuracy or rate of fire, unfortunately.

Indeed, most unfortunate. If you could, I would definitely have had that as one of the fundamental features of the weapon(s). Actually, I posted a topic in the suggestion forum the other day suggesting a reload speed tag for ranged weapons. If you want it to get noticed and perhaps implemented, check it out and maybe comment on it, since that will make it evident that there is some interest in it.

What I'm testing and experimenting with right now is basically a dwarven hand cannon that fires big lead balls. Trouble is, in order for them to do any damage, the numbers involved have to be so high as to be basically arbitrary, and it's difficult to test the effects of varying one parameter except by spending a lot of time making incremental changes to multiple test weapon entries and then spending time setting up a test in the object testing arena, and then quantifying the results, and then repeating... it takes a ton of time, and is very tedious.

Speaking of which, if anyone knows of a way to speed this process up, I'd love to hear it.

[Tellemurius]

dude thats the easiest way to do it. while on this subject did you try making the bullet stronger than a spear? best object to examine for piercing shots.

[Rhenaya]

how about that one? http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=2138

[Tellemurius]

do i sense advertisement?

[JediaKyrol]

I think charcoal, sulfur, and guano/manure are common early gunpowder ingredients.  modern gunpowder uses nitrocellulose with additives for flash/sound suppression, preventing machine wear, slowing burn time and such...

(edit:  http://www.skepticfiles.org/new/197doc.htm  yeah, potassium nitrate and sodium nitrate from bird and cow poo...pretty easy to get a-hold of, mineral saltpeter is pretty common in DF as well)

problem is, old gunpowder (black powder) is extremely inefficient...it requires massive amounts of the stuff to launch a projectile.  so if you were making cased ammunition, you would need 2-3 times as much propellant mass as projectile.

wikipedia has a bit of info on gunpowder...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder

come to think of it...I work in a library...have all of these things with words in them...possibly one has something on physical properties of processed black powder...  I'll look and report back when I find something.

[Rowanas]

come to think of it...I work in a library...have all of these things with words in them...possibly one has something on physical properties of processed black powder...  I'll look and report back when I find something.

But.. you're on a computer right now, aren't you?

[Malaclypse]

Firstly, a question:

Does anyone know whether the force and max velocity tokens in the weapon raws affect the damage, penetration, or other characteristics that are calculated if the projectile actually hits the target rather than missing entirely, or do those tokens only affect the movement of the projectile from point A to point B, and/or it's accuracy/ability to hit a target in the first place?

----------

Secondly, a description of some of the things in the mod, and some of my ideas, thoughts, and considerations on various aspects of it:

Most of the production stuff (the reaction reagents and products) in Rowanas' mod is similar to what I've worked out already for my mod, although mine is a bit more involved. One of the goals for this mod is not just to give the dwarves guns, but to make the production of said guns (and particularly their ammunition) involve some degree of... fun.

I may lower the ignition temperature for gunpowder to increase fun. Also, I'm making it a powder, created at a black powder mill. This may result in dwarves walking around with black powder on them, and tracking it through the fortress, for even more fun. I'm considering making it solidify in water to prevent it from being too fun, though. That way a nice bath will enable the dwarves to either put it somewhere where it can't do much harm, or, if it stays in the water, prevent it from igniting.

The gunsmith workshop requires a lot of equipment, with the side effect of making it potentially a veritable shrine of dwarven opulence and wealth- which I think is pretty neat and fitting. The production of guns is going to require water, among other things, since machining the barrel will require a lubricant.

I've borrowed the saltpeter beds building from the Civilization Forge mod, though I've changed one of the reagents from any coal item to, specifically, charcoal bars (because that's what was used), and added water as a reagent, since it's used in the process of producing saltpeter.

There is a separate workshop for producing the ammo, due to the fact that gunsmithing involves things that would make having gunpowder lying around in there stupid even for a dwarf. Also, I'm toying with the idea of allowing steel and iron bullets, but requiring either lead or copper as a reagent in the reaction to produce them, since they require a 'jacket' of a softer metal to prevent damaging the barrel of the gun. This may or may not be realistic, but I kinda like the idea, and it would make lead somewhat more useful to have around for a change.

I'm still debating with myself over the material for the guns, but, similar to Rowanas' mod, they will require both a mechanism and some wood- though for mine, the mechanism must be made of metal.

For added fun, I'm thinking about making custom metal materials identical to the ones used to produce the guns, only with much lower ignition points, and perhaps higher specific heat. The guns would be made of these custom materials (although the metals required in the reaction will be the normal versions). The point of this would be to simulate the fact that, beyond the gun and bullets, you also have to carry around gunpowder in order to actually use the gun. The reason I'm leaning toward doing that for the gun and not the ammo is the fact that I don't want the ammo that's been shot to suddenly burst into flame- that might be too much fun. I'm still debating over whether do do that at all, and if so, which to give the special treatment to. The only reason I'm considering having the ammo get the treatment is the fact that having ammo lying around would include having gunpowder lying around... although if the gun gets the treatment, you'd still have flammable items lying around, just in much smaller numbers. I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this.

----------

And finally, some messages/replies to specific people:

how about that one? http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=2138

Thanks for posting that! I'm about to do some testing with the gun and ammo specs from your mod; if I like them, would you mind my using them as a basis or starting point for the guns in my mod? (In which case I would, of course, include a note in the mod description giving you credit for that)

come to think of it...I work in a library...have all of these things with words in them...possibly one has something on physical properties of processed black powder...  I'll look and report back when I find something.

Thanks, I'd appreciate that!

do i sense advertisement?

I'm actually very glad he posted that, as otherwise I wouldn't have known there was a similar mod already out there, and it enables collaboration and the sharing of ideas and so on. Plus, even if it is advertisement, I don't see anything wrong with that.

[inEQUALITY]

Perhaps make it a bit realistic. Make guns DEADLY inaccurate. The first guns bullets were big, but constantly missed unless used in close-quarters. Thats a good way to tone down guns and make them historically accurate at the same time!

You can't mod ranged weapon accuracy or rate of fire, unfortunately.

Indeed, most unfortunate. If you could, I would definitely have had that as one of the fundamental features of the weapon(s). Actually, I posted a topic in the suggestion forum the other day suggesting a reload speed tag for ranged weapons. If you want it to get noticed and perhaps implemented, check it out and maybe comment on it, since that will make it evident that there is some interest in it.

What I'm testing and experimenting with right now is basically a dwarven hand cannon that fires big lead balls. Trouble is, in order for them to do any damage, the numbers involved have to be so high as to be basically arbitrary, and it's difficult to test the effects of varying one parameter except by spending a lot of time making incremental changes to multiple test weapon entries and then spending time setting up a test in the object testing arena, and then quantifying the results, and then repeating... it takes a ton of time, and is very tedious.

Speaking of which, if anyone knows of a way to speed this process up, I'd love to hear it.

Just, for the record, even though it's technical a 'blunt' ammo, changing it to 'edge' does wonders in terms of damage, if you're not doing so.

[Malaclypse]

Just, for the record, even though it's technical a 'blunt' ammo, changing it to 'edge' does wonders in terms of damage, if you're not doing so.

Yep, I've done tests with both blunt and edged versions. The problems I've had with making this work are as follows:

Firstly, with regards only to the lead projectiles I tested (normal weapons grade metals didn't really have this problem), the way the game handles damage and weapons and the affect material properties have on them, lead is absolutely horrendous as a material for a weapon. In order to do anything useful, ridiculous values have to be used for the projectile size and other weapon and ammo parameters.

Secondly, regardless of the metal used (except for, possibly, adamantine, which I haven't tested), the projectiles are simply incapable of penetrating steel armor- even when using steel for the ammo. This is, I think, mostly a result of the small size of the bullets. Being able to penetrate or do damage through steel armor (I'm not picky regarding blunt and edged- whichever accomplishes my idea of what the weapon should do is fine with me) is basically a requirement in my mind- the very reason that the early guns were so effective was their ability to penetrate the steel armor in use at the time. This is not the case with the arquebus, however, and I do intend to include the arquebus as one of the varieties of gun included in the mod, so I've got at least that one worked out. But I digress...

In order to make them effective against steel armor, you have to do one of two things: make the projectiles ridiculously massive, or use other parameters for them that make them godlike against anything that less than steel armor (or no armor), or both of these things. And I do not want the guns to work that way. They should be reasonably useful against steel armor (even if only when steel bullets are used) while still not being so ungodly powerful against non-steel armor (or no armor) that anything without it is simply dead.

In the case of making the projectiles larger- the reason this is bad is the fact that the sizes needed (if I remember from my tests- this may not be the case with steel projectils; I will have to go back and test this again) are either much larger than a bullet aught to be (which I might be willing to accept if it's the only way to do this), or so heavy that they make your speed so low that, after shooting, anything within range has a ridiculous amount of time to approach you and kill you- far beyond the amount of slowness which I would like to, ideally, see in a gun... plus, while a gun should ideally be slow to reload... you at least should have the ability to move, or the option to move, or whatever; the way the game works, you just sit there and are unable to give any input while your opponent zips up to you and opens a can of whoopass on you while you twiddle your thumbs.

Also, after doing some testing with the gun and ammo in Rhenaya's mod, I experienced the same problem as with my own weapon tests- the bullets are simply incapable of doing anything to steel armor, even when using steel bullets.

So... yeah. I'm still working on it, and will need to do more testing.

[JediaKyrol]

ok, sorry for the delay...According to a couple of chemistry books and a US Army pyrotechnics guidebook I found...

Black Powder:
Optimal Composition - 74.6% Potassium Nitrate, 13.5% Charcoal, 11.9% Sulfur

basic "Green Mix" powder is made by mixing the ingredients by hand and pressing them through a screen of 100-mesh or finer...this is old-old-school black powder...it burns, but not well, and leaves half it's weight as inert materials and water residue.  Feels like sand and has large visible crystals.

The next step is Milling, running the green mix through a mill to break up the crystals and more efficiently mix the ingredients.  Any metal will cause the stuff to explode, and the grain can get fine enough to be a skin irritant, so touching it isn't recommended, must be pretty smooth though.

Finally, there are two alternate methods for having ready-to-use black powder, Granulating and  Pressing-Cracking.  Granulating is simply mixing of hand-mixed with milled, so it looks and feels like a mix of both.  This has more explosive power than the hand-mixed, but is less volatile in storage than milled.  With Pressing-Cracking the milled powder is mixed with water, then pressed into bricks of about 1.7grams per cubic centimeter, dried, then cracked.  This is apparently sometimes called "corning".  The cracked pieces have the same explosive properties as the milled, and crumble and go inert if wet. 

doesn't give dates, but I figure Pressing-Cracking is the most modern method, as it provides the best storage capabilities with the biggest bang.   Granulated is still no slacker though, and seems to be the popular method for making homemade fireworks.

It also appears that the combustability can vary greatly depending on the kind of wood used for the charcoal...but yeah...that may be a bit much.

oh!  Here's a online copy of the army paper if you want to read it for a more "intellectual" explanation than mine...(I prolly screwed some of it up as well...as I mostly just skimmed it...so this is to make up for any mistakes.)...I didn't think I would actually find it online...our copy is on microfilm

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA100273

and some further studies on black powder
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA122264
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA147801

[Malaclypse]

Thanks a bunch! I'm going to get back to working on this just as soon as I finish the magma man mod ^_^