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[Capntastic]

Just going to add that currently, Toady's stated that items like 'skirt' and 'dress' and 'pants' are just really rough groupings meant to represent similar but distinct things.   So that 'skirt' your dwarf axeguy might wear could be a skirt, but it could also be a kilt or a sarong.  These gradiations may or may not be improved upon in the default raws, and cultures in the future of the game may of course have different proceduralized notions of who wears what, or even have the ability to make specifications to them, such as 'long male's skirt of the Hillfolk', etc.

This is directed mostly at Pilsu, but I never said I was against the idea of gender-norm tags in the raws- just pointing out that they're just not going to be the precision tools needed if you really want to make a civ that wears exact copies of real-life outfits like blue jeans and t-shirts for males and pantsuits for women.  Like all things that aim to make it easier to create or recreate specific worlds, the majority of work lay on the modder to make it happen.

[Sfon]

Or activity specific. A skirt is easier to make and works fine for those who sit around in front of a kitchen, but if you are running and swimming then pants are more practical. This makes more sense for DF than dresses=female since there is no significant division of labor based on gender.

Perhaps if some things like skirts were faster/cheaper to make, but having to do very physically active jobs without pants would cause minor bad thoughts unless there are some available he can afford.  On the other hand only having practical clothes available might frustrate nobles, who would instead prefer fancy robes and other pajama-like clothes to avoid looking like a working-class clodhopper.

Although it is sort of silly to talk about this when replacing worn clothes doesn't even work yet.

[therahedwig]

Hm... considering fashion as well...

How about this: during worldgen anyone can wear anything, from this point on the game chooses a particular 'fashion' for each culture.
Later during fortress mode(or adventure mode, if you wish) you as the player can attempt to influence these standards by creating new items and trading it around.
And then, say if the game ever has to generate something again, the fashion will be generated by looking at other similar creatures and copying their equipment, so if all female woodcutters wear masks in your civilisation, it will copy that onto the new female woodcutter. But it might as well copy from that single woodcutter who doesn't wear a mask, increasing the common...ness(?) of non-mask wearing female woodcutters.

In the raws itself, one would only note what caste, job or position is allowed to wear a specific item.(Because some people would really object against men wearing hats )

I think, the game should also note what colours and materials are a-okay. For example, in Rome, purple was VERY expensive. So you could tell senators and the emperor from the amount of purple they were wearing. This should probably be looked at after the caravan arc as well.

[jazztoken]

Just dropping this-

In the 14th century, there wasn't much division in what men and women wore.

In fact, most common people just wore underwear and sacks, more or less.

[Tuxman]

What I would like to see is not necessarily Skirt=Female and Pants=Male, but rather that the world decides it by random for both males and females. Each has a norm. They could be similar, or different. Doesn't matter much, only the randomness.

It would be a bit more realistic if people treated you oddly if you were wearing foreign clothes.

For example, one nation has men wearing robes. The other has them wearing tunics. If you wear a robe in the tunic land, you will be branded as a stranger. In the other land, vice versal. To blend in, you would have to have clothes that match the area around you.

There is almost no significance in arguing that its odd your male dwarves wear skirts. Look at the romans....

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Or maybe even base it on the land the people live in. I know human civilizations all live in the same biomes, but if they ever branch out, their clothes should match the environment.

For example-    Hotter- Less clothes       Colder- More clothes
Desert dwellers wear robes to this day to block out the heat. It would make sense that desert dwellers wore short skirts and tank tops and the tundra dwellers wore a robed over a dress over a tunic over pants over....

You get my point...

[MrWiggles]

What I would like to see is not necessarily Skirt=Female and Pants=Male, but rather that the world decides it by random for both males and females. Each has a norm. They could be similar, or different. Doesn't matter much, only the randomness.

It would be a bit more realistic if people treated you oddly if you were wearing foreign clothes.

For example, one nation has men wearing robes. The other has them wearing tunics. If you wear a robe in the tunic land, you will be branded as a stranger. In the other land, vice versal. To blend in, you would have to have clothes that match the area around you.

There is almost no significance in arguing that its odd your male dwarves wear skirts. Look at the romans....

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Or maybe even base it on the land the people live in. I know human civilizations all live in the same biomes, but if they ever branch out, their clothes should match the environment.

For example-    Hotter- Less clothes       Colder- More clothes
Desert dwellers wear robes to this day to block out the heat. It would make sense that desert dwellers wore short skirts and tank tops and the tundra dwellers wore a robed over a dress over a tunic over pants over....

You get my point...

Well, thats already planned and its on the Dev notes.

Though it was through the context of disguises, but the side benefit is that NPC will be somewhat aware of the fact that you're in queer clothing.

[inEQUALITY]

Just dropping this-

In the 14th century, there wasn't much division in what men and women wore.

In fact, most common people just wore underwear and sacks, more or less.

Problem; there's us modders to think about. Not to mention nobility IS present in DF, and they most definitely had distinction between male and female attire, most definitely especially obvious at court.

Well, these descriptors would be civ tags, so each civ would view different things as male or female.

I own several tunics because I LARP and one of the groups I LARP with are kind of pre-roman celtic, with the occasional oddity and a fair handful of norse mythology.

Or at least tags embedded with the clothing allowed tags, like so:

Code: [Select]

[ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_CORSETTE:FEMININE]

[CONTENT]

Well, thats already planned and its on the Dev notes.

Though it was through the context of disguises, but the side benefit is that NPC will be somewhat aware of the fact that you're in queer clothing.

Never quite noticed that, mind pointing out where at? I believe you, I just want to see what specifically you're talking about.

[MrWiggles]

If there is a URL thingthang that lets ya point at a bullet point for the dev, that'd be pretty spiffy but, hear ya go.


Breaking into fortified locations

• Disguises and impersonation through use of entity uniforms

Selling stolen property

     Unscrupulous people in markets and others willing to take stolen goods

• Sneaking and disguise portions of the Hero role above are required
  

Concealing your identity

• Changing your clothes should affect the appearance tracking
  Covering your face/hair with hoods, masks, etc. should affect appearance tracking
  

Nothing explicitly states what Tuxman was after, however if these things come in, then what Tuxman was asking about in part or whole would have to come into place.

At some point, NPC will be aware of the clothing your wearing, and you can use this to different affects.

[Rowanas]

If there is a URL thingthang that lets ya point at a bullet point for the dev, that'd be pretty spiffy but, hear ya go.

There is. Ask Footkerchief, he knows how it works.

[Footkerchief]

I don't know of any way to do that on the current dev page, and I don't see any anchors in the HTML.

[Rowanas]

Oh. I swear you used to do it all the time.

[inEQUALITY]

Oh. I swear you used to do it all the time.

The dev page has since been rewritten and I'm pretty sure they majorly recoded the HTML, manually or otherwise.

[Fancy Admiral]

So, clothing can be treated as uniforms.  Maybe generate a new outfit or modify an old one for each Noble, or each noteworthy member of a civ during it's history.  (Or maybe 1 in n for moderately sized histories.  n determined by world size and history length so far.  Doing this for every named historical figure seems like it would be a huge strain on memory.)  This way fashion evolves over time by popular figures daring to try new things and becomes generated uniquely in a way that you can trace in Legends if you care.  (Most won't, but it may be interesting to look back to find out why Noble Women wear masks or something.  Ah: It was popularized by the third queen of a dwarven civ which later married into mine!  We have Domat Cheesebeard, Queen in year 102 to thank for this custom.)

Normalcy for interactions then can be determined by caste(s) and civs after world gen.  Deviation by more than 1 or 2 pieces of clothing from [Civ][Male|Female][Profession|Noble]'s uniform might draw attention in adventure mode.  I imagine it could have repercussions in dwarf mode, too, if dwarves ever put on new clothes!  Stupid nude cheesemakers.

[Johnfalcon99977]

The anwser is easy.

Go to entiy raws. Turn robes, skirts, and anyother female sounding clothing item to rare, or better yet, take it out. It will sure make males have normal clothing, and females wear shirts.

[Artanis00]

Or at least tags embedded with the clothing allowed tags, like so:

Code: [Select]

[ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_CORSETTE:FEMININE]

I don't think we need a new tag for this. Especially since the corset is by no means purely feminine. I quick glance at the Wikipedia article will reveal that at times it was fashionable for men to use corsets for pretty much the same reason women do, and in fact many fashion styles we consider to be feminine were at times fashionable for men.

A better solution, to flesh out the "random outfit" idea--but without the random, so much--would be to have civilization generation rank all the categories of clothing by things like coverage, thickness, etc. against the local environment. Hot areas are going to rank heavy, covering items lower, and vice versa, and in temperate medium clothing will be at the top of the list. These rankings are stored.

Rather than generating outfits right there and locking them in for eternity, the civilization will just produce more of the higher ranked items, which will then be cheaper and worn by the majority of the populace. The nobles would be able to afford more expensive items, don't want to look like the commoners, and won't be subject to the elements as much, so they would prefer the lower ranked items.

At this point, class comes into play. Each job and noble position gets ranked. With the exceptions of peasants and rulers, each has one or more that are a step up in nobility, and one or more that are a step down, and may be peers with others.

Each job/noble class will have three pressures on it: emulate the fashion of those above it, one-up it's peers, and stay ahead of the lower classes. The ability for a given individual to be able to respond to these pressures is limited by purchasing power, and need to dress for the environment.

The end result is that a class will have a given outfit, try to add parts of the upper class' outfit to it, try to replace the lower class' pieces with different ones, and add/replace random pieces with other pieces to differentiate from peer classes.

Dyes, of course, increase the value of the item, so use of those remains with those that can afford them. You won't see peasants running around in red clothing unless they've bled on them recently.

This may need some thought... I mean, what happens if the king decides he wants to wear an artifact orange-dyed adamantium loincloth studded with opal and menaces with spikes of topaz, etc., etc... and nothing else (he spent all his fashion budget on it). He's the king so he can do that, no one's gonna criticize him except that 7 year old he just had thrown off the cliff for... in fact he will be emulated. The nobility will start dropping pieces of their outfit to emulate the king, leaving more and more of the fashion budget available for the loincloth plus random additions. This propagates down until it is balanced by the need to be comfortable in the elements.