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[Rowanas]

Hell, you can't even wear a tunic any more without people thinking you're either a stoner or a pre-op.

[Capntastic]

Hell, you can't even wear a tunic any more without people thinking you're either a stoner or a pre-op.

Gender is a construct.  So is stoner.

[Rowanas]

You'd have to know basic psychology to know that gender is simply a construct, rather than the physical term that it appears to be. I'm impressed.
On the other hand, it could be said that "stoner" is an object, because they are humans (object) who have undergone or are undergoing a series of physical changes caused by uptake of THC.

Anyway, the entire discussion of gender-specific clothing is based on the desire for dwarves to also have constructs, in this case, gender.

I apologise if I've missed the point, and if I have would you mind correcting me?

[Capntastic]

My point is that having cultural constructs like that represented in-game in a good way is a lot harder than adding '[gender:male/female]" tags to clothes raws.   Regardless, it will come about when Toady actually puts procedural cultural stuff in the game at all.

[Also I'd argue that 'stoner' is a construct- solely 'coz one would not suddenly become what is colloquially known as a stoner upon first sampling of cannabis, nor is there a clear cut, objective line at which point casual usage crosses over into being a 'stoner'.  Similarly, I don't associate myself as a smoker, even if I do enjoy a quality cigar now and then.  This side discussion is all for laughs, though, and the last post was a sideways way to bring attention to me stating that gender-specific clothes in the real world aren't constrained to the Western norm, and then you sayin' tunic-wearin' folks are stoners or transgendered, which is a fairly modern-day-western viewpoint.   Some of the toughest, soberest dudes in history wore tunics!]

[Rowanas]

Ah, of course.

Well, how would you propose that Toady (armok be with him) implements constructs, given that, as a computeri, Dwarf Fortress cannot actually understand constructs?

Western culture saddens me. My puffed pantaloons, ruff and Hello Kitty bodice will have to stay in my wardrobe.

[Capn, you make a good point for "stoner" as a construct. Nice one. I actually really like tunics though, both of those are things I've been called while wearing one (although being called a stoner is hardly a brand new experience for me)]

[KaelGotDwarves]

Psssssf, if you aren't a stanch ontological and epistemological Objectivist, you'd say that everything are constructs.

Cut some slack for subjectivist and social constructivist paradigms.

Or Eastern traditions, we have candy.

[Rowanas]

Psssssf, if you aren't a stanch ontological and epistemological Objectivist, you'd say that everything are constructs.

Cut some slack for subjectivist and social constructivist paradigms.

Or Eastern traditions, we have candy.

Well, I try not to break discussions down to existential level, because it's the philosophical "god moves in mysterious ways" (the get-out sentence). I think I might change my sig now...

[Pilsu]

Saying that gender is a construct means little when the request was to be able to create such a construct in the first place. Maybe you'd prefer the RNG handle such things but personally, I feel that the RNG does nothing but pull me out of the game with it's constant failures. I thought the point of the RAWs was to customize the game to my liking. Hardcoded RNG shenanigans does nothing but frustrate me time and again.

[MrWiggles]

I have to agree with Capntastic here.

Its arbitrary which clothing items get associated with which gender identification. And its arbitrary which which clothing items are associated with which social class. Then to thrown fashions on top of this, which would probably also interrelate with traditions of the civilization. And have it'd be controllable through tags sounds right impractical.

[Rowanas]

Well, if each piece of clothing could accept an extra couple of tags in the raws...


entity_default

[OBJECT:ENTITY]

[ENTITY:MOUNTAIN]
   [ADVENTURE_TIER:1]
   [CIV_CONTROLLABLE]
   [CREATURE:DWARF]
   [TRANSLATION:DWARF]
   [ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_MAIL_SHIRT:COMMON]
   [ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_LEATHER:COMMON]
   [ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_COAT:COMMON:CASTE:MALE]
   [ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_SHIRT:COMMON:CASTE:FEMALE]

This would allow you to restrict clothes based on any caste, with no definition defaulting to caste:all.

Sure, there are other things that must be included, like differences in civ clothing, but could that not also be based off a quick check in the raws to find out whether that ambassador thinks you look like a moron, or whether this elf thinks you're a stinking savage?

[Sunken]

Forge dwarfen mail
Forge dwarfen femail



All right all right, I'm leaving now, OK, sheesh

[MrWiggles]

A common tag, may work, sorta. Kinda.

Which clothing a dorf should rare could be broken down into its gender identification, social class, and fashion. Fashion here, being used to not only define the aesthetics of the clothes, but at the time which clothes items are popular to rare for gender IDs and social classes.


So, a tag that denoted a piece of clothing as feminine or masculine make work. Then have fashion decide which masculine or feminine clothing are worn with what gender ID and which social clothes.

Though, I would have a hard time classify clothing articles are masculine or feminine, (beside undergarments). There isn't a piece of clothing that I can think that hasn't been worn by either sexes either jointly or one gender ID over the other prominently.

Dresses? Worn by male and female genders, heck just about anyone. Same with a skirt. There also the a tunic, (I own a tunic, I'm not a stoner nor am I pre-op [where did this come from?]. Its part of my garb for Renfair or SCA.)

So yea, now I'm thinking that masculine and feminine  should be descriptors for the clothing, but not a restrictor of who can wear the clothing.

[Rowanas]

Well, these descriptors would be civ tags, so each civ would view different things as male or female.

I own several tunics because I LARP and one of the groups I LARP with are kind of pre-roman celtic, with the occasional oddity and a fair handful of norse mythology.

[MrWiggles]

Well, these descriptors would be civ tags, so each civ would view different things as male or female.

I own several tunics because I LARP and one of the groups I LARP with are kind of pre-roman celtic, with the occasional oddity and a fair handful of norse mythology.

So, yer not a stoner or pre-op?

[Rowanas]

...No...

Well, I'm not an artificial stoner. I may be a natural stoner, though

(Which is to say that a lot of people assume that I must have just been toking from my manner, appearance or behaviour. Hey, even my mother used to say I look stoned most of the time.)