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[Malaclypse]

(I am aware that this has been mentioned in a previous topic, but that was a year ago, and my suggestion is slightly different, so I felt it would be better to just create a new topic.)

I feel that adding a token that controls the reload speed of ranged weapons would make it possible to, firstly, completely fix them (ie, make them effective -balanced- weapons), and, secondly, enable the differences between bows and crossbows to be more realistically simulated in the game, so that they aren't identical in all but name. I am not sure how this would work in terms of what would play into the reload time (if anything) or how the tag would function, but I do think it would be a great boon. Ideally, bows should be relatively fast-firing (although it would certainly possible to make slower, more powerful ones- this flexibility is the reason I feel this token is needed), whilst crossbows should be slower to reload but considerably more powerful (greater penetration, greater firing force, and with bolts up to three times heavier than arrows (which would be a simple matter of increasing their size, to my understanding- although in reality crossbow bolts are generally smaller than arrows [but still heavier]).

Some discussion of this has taken place in this thread (though it is not the actual thread topic):

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=71401.0

[TheyTarget]

As far as I remember, crossbowmen were usually mercenaries, and had a giant shield they stood behind to guard from enemy fire. Ranged battles in dwarf fort don't take place over very large distances, so a realistic reload time for crossbows would make them useless. You'd get one shot off before the gobbos are on you. I guess you could balance it by making crossbows more accurate and powerful. Or you could increase the range archers could shot and see.

[Dakk]

Ranged attackers in fortress mode and NPC ones in adventurer are able to shoot at a long range, adventurers should be able to aswell.
Mayhap your line of sight upon aiming with your bow/crossbow should increase dramaticaly. A player should also be able to do it with the [l]ook command. If you can't do that its like you said, they become sorta useless.

Also, if we are to have realistic battles between armies, ranged attacks should be able to shoot upwards, making the projectile fly in an arch to hit an enemy very far away, like medieval archers and crossbowmen would do.

Hmms, time to make a suggestion.

[inEQUALITY]

I'm fairly sure that there's something about/similar to this on Toady's development page, I think with aimed ranged attacks (where it hits the enemy, that is) or somesuch. Also, even if a realistic reload time would make them almost useless... who said it had to be realistic? It's DF, home of the dreaded carp and legendary dwarven wrestlers wearing skirts. Besides, reload speed/rate of fire tokens (machine crossbow anyone? They were almost certainly around in Asia at the time period Toady's aiming for) would be immensely useful for modders. I just imagine that the math and mechanics behind it, thanks to the way the relatively abstract system of 'time' currently works, would be an Urist McDouche to code even close to flawlessly.

[Rowanas]

Nah, we just set a speed token, much like we do now for creatures. Only one token extra would be necessary:

[RELOAD_SPEED:""]

the quote marks would just be replaced by whatever speed modifier you want, so [RELOAD_SPEED:10] would take 10 ticks to reload, modified by skill, while [RELOAD_SPEED:200] would take 200 ticks to reload, again, modified.

Hmm. Unless the modifiers were a straight addition/subtraction, it would make long to reload weapons gain more from high skill.

Legendary = x0.5

Bow, with [RELOAD_SPEED:10] would go down to 5.
Crossbow, with [RELOAD_SPEED:200] would go down to 100.

While they still fire the same, relative to each other, the difference between 5 ticks and 100 is enormous. Therefore, I propose that reload times would be affected in a purely additive/subtractive way by skill.

Furthermore, the archer and weapon skill should both factor in, meaning that the use of any missile weapon will increase your speed, because they all share certain reloading characteristics; even blowpipes.

EDIT: But if skill is a straight additive/subtractive, you'll get dwarves with fast weapons taking literally no time to reload.

[TheyTarget]

I'm fairly sure that there's something about/similar to this on Toady's development page, I think with aimed ranged attacks (where it hits the enemy, that is) or somesuch. Also, even if a realistic reload time would make them almost useless... who said it had to be realistic? It's DF, home of the dreaded carp and legendary dwarven wrestlers wearing skirts. Besides, reload speed/rate of fire tokens (machine crossbow anyone? They were almost certainly around in Asia at the time period Toady's aiming for) would be immensely useful for modders. I just imagine that the math and mechanics behind it, thanks to the way the relatively abstract system of 'time' currently works, would be an Urist McDouche to code even close to flawlessly.

Did they have machine crossbows? I thought they had some incredibly powerful ones, but never heard of something like that. I will look it up.


I have discovered this amazing machine crossbow. It is quite impressive.

[tsen]

Cho-ko-nu?

[ZebioLizard2]

Machine crossbows worked by having a ton of ammo in it at the time, most common variations simply had it full, and then reloaded standard like one bolt one fire, if the user had time and practice, he could refill it completely, but it'd take quite a bit of time. Not to mention these while faster, often didn't have the penetrating power and were used in a closer combat situations.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

Nah, we just set a speed token, much like we do now for creatures. Only one token extra would be necessary:

[RELOAD_SPEED:""]

the quote marks would just be replaced by whatever speed modifier you want, so [RELOAD_SPEED:10] would take 10 ticks to reload, modified by skill, while [RELOAD_SPEED:200] would take 200 ticks to reload, again, modified.

Hmm. Unless the modifiers were a straight addition/subtraction, it would make long to reload weapons gain more from high skill.

Legendary = x0.5

Bow, with [RELOAD_SPEED:10] would go down to 5.
Crossbow, with [RELOAD_SPEED:200] would go down to 100.

While they still fire the same, relative to each other, the difference between 5 ticks and 100 is enormous. Therefore, I propose that reload times would be affected in a purely additive/subtractive way by skill.

Furthermore, the archer and weapon skill should both factor in, meaning that the use of any missile weapon will increase your speed, because they all share certain reloading characteristics; even blowpipes.

EDIT: But if skill is a straight additive/subtractive, you'll get dwarves with fast weapons taking literally no time to reload.

Exactly this!
then we have pistol-like hand crossbows that are quick to reload and heavy winch crossbows that require half the battle to reload 

[Malaclypse]

Just for clarification, I should note that the phrase 'more realistically simulated' was pertaining to the differences between the two weapons. Eg., the qualitative differences between them should be represented to some degree- though that need not be to any great degree. So, I'm not necessarily saying that the physics and mechanics of shooting projectiles and the way the projectiles behave should be handled with more realism (though neither am I saying that they should not be changed- one way or the other it is irrelevant to my specific suggestion [that said, I'm not trying to discourage other ideas being thrown around here. Just want to clarify what I meant]). My point is that the addition of a single token that in some way controls reload speed would enable the general idea of the difference between crossbows and bows to be represented in the game very easily and satisfactorily in conjunction with the already existing tokens. Again, the idea should come across, but it need not be entirely realistic, or any more realistic than any of the other game mechanics.

(How easy or simple the token would be to code/add to the game, though, I have no idea. Might be more effort than it's worth if it's overly complicated or would require the whole combat system to be recoded to accommodate it, but if not... it would certainly be nice to have.)

Some of this is reiterated here:

Also, even if a realistic reload time would make them almost useless... who said it had to be realistic? It's DF, home of the dreaded carp and legendary dwarven wrestlers wearing skirts. Besides, reload speed/rate of fire tokens (machine crossbow anyone? They were almost certainly around in Asia at the time period Toady's aiming for) would be immensely useful for modders.