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Is a communist / socialist (similar goals in theory) world the ultimate goal of humanity?

Definitely yes.
Technically yes.
Technically no.
Definitely no.
Uncertain.
Other.
Don't care.

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Author Topic: Communism / Socialism is the Ultimate Goal of Humanity  (Read 16847 times)

fqllve

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Re: Communism / Socialism is the Ultimate Goal of Humanity
« Reply #135 on: November 26, 2010, 11:16:41 pm »

I have not read the Fountainhead in a long time so I am not sure. He probably feels that all of society is undeserving of the spot because they do not live according to his morals, and therefore do not deserve it, meaning he would develop it to deprive them of it. Also she felt that humans should develop all the earth so long as it was in their best interest. She wrote it in the 40s and set that scene in the 20s (?) and so the idea that conserving it would be a good idea was totally off the radar for her.

Ah, thanks. It wasn't really conservationism that bothered me but more that I really enjoyed her description of it and it made me think "Ah damn, why would you destroy something so beautiful?" Oh! Roark has no artistic sensibilities. Starting to make sense.

Marxist communism isn't REALLY a political system. It's more the concept of a natural evolution from a capitalist society to one of, essentially, organised anarchism.

To quote Wikipedia: "In Marxist theory, communism is a specific stage of historical development that inevitably emerges from the development of the productive forces that leads to a superabundance of material wealth, allowing for distribution based on need and social relations based on freely-associated individuals."

Every single possible dream of every person (or at least every socially acceptable dream) leads to the concept of Marxist communism. The idea that there is so much wealth in the world that there is no need for it to be situated amongst the few.

I don't disagree with you about the current distribution of wealth. What I do disagree with is that communism is a good ultimate, as in final, goal for humanity. A decent communist state could be set up in the next couple centuries. Seems pessimistic.

I'm also not sure that a free market economy is necessarily exploitative. It might just be that people are necessarily exploitative, and then communism ends up just as bad, right? (I could easily be wrong about this since I really know jack shit about economics)

I don't understand what you mean by "every single possible dream. . .leads to the concept of Marxist communism." Are you suggesting that my dreams are inherently communist without my knowing it? That everyone's dreams are? I don't agree with that either. My dream is to learn about and experience as many interesting things as possible.

Quote
Not to mention the Roark bullcrap. I bet she was masturbating whilst writing that book seriously.

Haha, yeah. I totally see that.

I've actually read about objectivism, as explained by objectivists, and had dealings with a good number of the bastards in the past. They were all, without exception, horrible people, as can be expected from following such a contradictory clusterfuck as Ayn Rand's rantings, most of which were guided by her desire for power for herself at the expense of her followers, see: the article I linked to. Written by a prominent Libertarian no less.

I'm sure most objectivists are okay people when you aren't arguing with them about objectivism. Even if the philosophy is inherently evil it's hard to apply a philosophy to your day-to-day activities.
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Sir Pseudonymous

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Re: Communism / Socialism is the Ultimate Goal of Humanity
« Reply #136 on: November 26, 2010, 11:50:36 pm »

I've actually read about objectivism, as explained by objectivists, and had dealings with a good number of the bastards in the past. They were all, without exception, horrible people, as can be expected from following such a contradictory clusterfuck as Ayn Rand's rantings, most of which were guided by her desire for power for herself at the expense of her followers, see: the article I linked to. Written by a prominent Libertarian no less.

I'm sure most objectivists are okay people when you aren't arguing with them about objectivism. Even if the philosophy is inherently evil it's hard to apply a philosophy to your day-to-day activities.
Well, the closest thing to an objectivist I've personally known has been a satanist (satanism being objectivism rewrapped with some occult bullshit that somehow manages to be less insane :-\), and while he aspired to be a manipulative bastard, he was mostly just incompetent with some half-assed affectations of cruelty. He was actually alright, if you ignored the arrogance and endless anecdotes about Aleister Crowley and musing on his own alleged masochism (which somehow got worked into every conversation, with anyone)...

But, every objectivist I've dealt with has been stuck up their own ass, and obsessed Ayn Rand's insane rantings, or perhaps more specifically other objectivists' interpretations of them, since I doubt they'd dare interpret them for themselves, seeing as how they so frown on the slightest deviance from what Their God Ayn Rand taught them.
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mainiac

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Re: Communism / Socialism is the Ultimate Goal of Humanity
« Reply #137 on: November 27, 2010, 12:49:57 am »

The only satanist I ever knew wanted to skull fuck Ayn Rand's corpse.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Communism / Socialism is the Ultimate Goal of Humanity
« Reply #138 on: November 27, 2010, 02:35:37 am »

Sir Pseudonymous, are you fighting for or against communism?
Neither and both.

Cool. I think you are the most sane person here. Much more so then me at least.

Off I go then.
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V-Norrec

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Re: Communism / Socialism is the Ultimate Goal of Humanity
« Reply #139 on: November 27, 2010, 03:06:48 am »

I feel this is getting slightly off the topic of communism so here is something for you to laugh at.

Oh those silly communists.

Eugenitor

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Re: Communism / Socialism is the Ultimate Goal of Humanity
« Reply #140 on: November 27, 2010, 03:09:05 am »

Some of us are trying to forget that assflute existed, thanks.
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Re: Communism / Socialism is the Ultimate Goal of Humanity
« Reply #141 on: November 27, 2010, 06:09:56 am »

I feel this is getting slightly off the topic of communism so here is something for you to laugh at.

Oh those silly communists.

I have to say, that did make me laugh.

Well, the closest thing to an objectivist I've personally known has been a satanist (satanism being objectivism rewrapped with some occult bullshit that somehow manages to be less insane :-\), and while he aspired to be a manipulative bastard, he was mostly just incompetent with some half-assed affectations of cruelty. He was actually alright, if you ignored the arrogance and endless anecdotes about Aleister Crowley and musing on his own alleged masochism (which somehow got worked into every conversation, with anyone)...

But, every objectivist I've dealt with has been stuck up their own ass, and obsessed Ayn Rand's insane rantings, or perhaps more specifically other objectivists' interpretations of them, since I doubt they'd dare interpret them for themselves, seeing as how they so frown on the slightest deviance from what Their God Ayn Rand taught them.

Personally, I find it funny when people think they need to subscribe to a philosophy or religion to be manipulative bastards. And I don't know what sort of idiot publishes a book about being manipulative (except Machiavelli's The Prince, and that was just plain epic), especially whilst claiming to be completely self serving. I mean, you're completely self serving yet you espouse your philosophy to others? Yeeeah... You know why Ayn Rand really didn't get far in life? Because she failed at her own philosophy.

Zrk2 says Communism is flawed and yet the person who invented objectivism couldn't live up to it. That should tell you something.

I don't get why every Objectivist is a nutjob. Like Terry Goodkind. That guy is just fucking batshit.
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Phmcw

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Re: Communism / Socialism is the Ultimate Goal of Humanity
« Reply #142 on: November 27, 2010, 08:04:45 am »

Nikov, why do you feel class warfare was unjustified at the time.
Trans, there is no need of communism for a free education.

On the topic of class warfare right now, and why the situation changed.
At the time, the proletarian worked to supply riches to the wealthy. Their own consumption was low, and consisted only of product of basic necessities.  They couldn't afford any education, lest they where some genius who could get under the protection of some teacher that manage to get some sort of grant. Social laws where their only chance, and massive action/protest, their only tool.
The Upper class, wanted to keep them low, because their consumption was negligible, and they were only cheap tools.
The different classes were pretty much hereditary. They were exception, but few of them, and not exactly easy, or devoid from risk (as in being killed). Class warfare was not an overstatement. If you were a syndicalist, most of the wealthy (for instance this true American hero, still given as example although he was a complete bastard in this regard, Henry Ford), wanted you dead.
If you were going on strike, the army could be called, and they have fired in the crowd a few time (collusion of the wealthy and the government).

Now, in Europe, everyone use entertainment, if only by the means of the television. Worker's consumption is the motor of the economy, and education is cheap (not speaking of England but hat's another problem. A  modern problem, with roots in th lower classes.) The true working class is in china, Thailand, Taiwan, but they are pressured by the company that supply us with goods.
Now, the socialist fight for higher wage in Europe, were wage are already high. They want riches for the riches.
But there is poeple richer than even us... and that's were class warfare fail.

1800's class: Wealthy, clergy, government, all working together to pressure the laboring class, and profiting from their work, while doing few themselves. The middle class, being the arm of the higher class, are still enemy of the poeple (communists usually overlooked that without them, the country would crumble form sheer lack of intellect.).

2000's "class". Third world, emergents countries, wealthy countries. All forming a weird, entangled web with poor, average, wealthy, and incredibly wealthy in each kind of countries, pushed by ethics, economy, beliefs...
Class warfare is a simple model, who cannot withstand such complexity. The poor from rich country benefits from pressuring the poor from emergent countries. The wealthy from emergent countries predate the poor and the wealthy from rich countries alike...

So, Trans, you're using 1800's strategy in a 2000's world war. Your thinking system is obsolete, and weight those of us that try to protect the interest of the poeple in today's world.

Ayn Rand isn't a scientific. I laugh when she pretend to promote "realism" and "rationality" with such a poor scientific, logic and mathematical culture. Her whole argumentation is flawed, pretending to oppose individual and common good, while pretending that individual good will somehow profit to everyone (since you know, in her perfect world, everybody is selfish).

At the end, what I hate in all these "thinker", is that they ponder endlessly "ethical" and "philosophical" argument, instead of searching for a working system.
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Sir Pseudonymous

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Re: Communism / Socialism is the Ultimate Goal of Humanity
« Reply #143 on: November 27, 2010, 11:55:02 am »

The only satanist I ever knew wanted to skull fuck Ayn Rand's corpse.
What is it with satanists and wanting to skullfuck the remains of dead power figures? The satanist I knew was convinced that some ratty old barn was a secret masonic temple, and that there'd be a high-ranking mason's skull inside it, which he wanted to steal and violate... Note that my commentary on all that was, repeatedly, some variation of "are you fucking retarded?"

Well, the closest thing to an objectivist I've personally known has been a satanist (satanism being objectivism rewrapped with some occult bullshit that somehow manages to be less insane :-\), and while he aspired to be a manipulative bastard, he was mostly just incompetent with some half-assed affectations of cruelty. He was actually alright, if you ignored the arrogance and endless anecdotes about Aleister Crowley and musing on his own alleged masochism (which somehow got worked into every conversation, with anyone)...

But, every objectivist I've dealt with has been stuck up their own ass, and obsessed Ayn Rand's insane rantings, or perhaps more specifically other objectivists' interpretations of them, since I doubt they'd dare interpret them for themselves, seeing as how they so frown on the slightest deviance from what Their God Ayn Rand taught them.

Personally, I find it funny when people think they need to subscribe to a philosophy or religion to be manipulative bastards. And I don't know what sort of idiot publishes a book about being manipulative (except Machiavelli's The Prince, and that was just plain epic), especially whilst claiming to be completely self serving. I mean, you're completely self serving yet you espouse your philosophy to others? Yeeeah... You know why Ayn Rand really didn't get far in life? Because she failed at her own philosophy.
But Ayn Rand did more or less get what she wanted, for a time at least, though she had her head too far up her own ass to stop it from falling apart with the excommunication of Branden. I really have to recommend reading the afore-linked article by Rothbard, The Sociology of the Ayn Rand Cult.
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Zrk2

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Re: Communism / Socialism is the Ultimate Goal of Humanity
« Reply #144 on: November 27, 2010, 03:37:00 pm »

Well, the MAD flamewar has started and so I feel I should leave and allow all of you to continue to feel secure in your misconceptions. Goodbye assholes. Oh shit! The flaming sucked me in!
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Phmcw

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Re: Communism / Socialism is the Ultimate Goal of Humanity
« Reply #145 on: November 27, 2010, 05:09:06 pm »

Where do you see a flame-war. Our disdain of Ayn Rand idea solely come from their inherent incoherency, and is expressed calmly and carefully. Well, except for the satanist, who was kind of rude but haven't posted personally.

Take a deep breath and edit your message
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Zrk2

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Re: Communism / Socialism is the Ultimate Goal of Humanity
« Reply #146 on: November 27, 2010, 06:02:46 pm »

I would be referring to the eternal claims that she was masturbating/retarded/you guys simply raging and not expressing coherent arguments against it.

I resign and allow you guys the chance to argue in your own fashion where you never actually question anything, just debate semantics.
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fqllve

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Re: Communism / Socialism is the Ultimate Goal of Humanity
« Reply #147 on: November 27, 2010, 06:05:19 pm »

Zrk2, calm down. The masturbating stuff was a joke.

Would it make you feel better if I said that in Ulysses Joyce was jacking off to Dedalus as he was writing.

And Dedalus was himself.

e: he totally was too. that book is amazingly written, but it is the most masturbatory thing i have ever read.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 06:08:54 pm by fqllve »
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Soadreqm

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Re: Communism / Socialism is the Ultimate Goal of Humanity
« Reply #148 on: November 27, 2010, 06:27:37 pm »

Zrk2, I feel an urge to point out that everyone is attacking Ayn Rand, not you. A flame war always needs two sides, and with Rand being dead, she's not providing many biting counterarguments. You're free to rush to her defense, I guess, but you said you're resigning, so this'll just have to remain a one-sided Dead Author Barbecue.

I haven't read any of the works of this "Rand" person myself. Was her philosophy the one where all the governments bugger off, and rich people lead Earth into a new golden age? I've never really understood that one. ._.
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Re: Communism / Socialism is the Ultimate Goal of Humanity
« Reply #149 on: November 28, 2010, 12:49:00 am »

Well, the MAD flamewar has started and so I feel I should leave and allow all of you to continue to feel secure in your misconceptions. Goodbye assholes. Oh shit! The flaming sucked me in!
I would be referring to the eternal claims that she was masturbating/retarded/you guys simply raging and not expressing coherent arguments against it.

I resign and allow you guys the chance to argue in your own fashion where you never actually question anything, just debate semantics.

Other than the fact that it's a batshit crazy philosophy that results in people that are nothing like the concepts it espouses?

Face it, Objectivism gets a bad rap because Rand's a bitch who couldn't really write for shit and didn't believe in anything she wrote. Oh, and it breeds people like Terry Goodkind. Nevermind the fact it's a stupid, anti-humanist philosophy anyway.

I mean, just read:-
The Sociology of the Ayn Rand Cult

For an example of that.

(And, yes, she probably did masturbate whilst writing the books, because they were basically a fan wank to her "ideal man".)
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