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Definitely yes.

Technically yes.

Technically no.

Definitely no.

Uncertain.

Other.

Don't care.

[Aqizzar]

Some of you may have overlooked the fact that by saying "I find communist ideas acceptable" you're actually also saying "I find mass murdering or deporting innocent people acceptable."

Just because some communist states murdered people doesn't make murdering a central part of communism.

Round and round and round we go.  I'm searching for one succinct post with all of these arguments contained in an easily quotable block, so I can just spam the thing any time these auto-historical-association posts rear their heads again.

[Muz]

The ultimate goal is something in which everyone does anything they want, as long as it doesn't get in anyone else's way. I don't know what kind of government that would be. If I did, I'd write a book about it and start a revolution.

It'll be something like the internet, though. Not perfect anarchy, but not many rules either. If you don't like your community, you can move to another, or something like that, and the people who break too many rules get banished to some city-state similar to /b/

[Phmcw]

I'm talking more about the Marxist concept of communism. Which, I suspect, is what most other people are talking about.

I don't know what you're talking about. :| It seems like you're discussing something similar to autocracy. :|

Socialism and communism are old, both in mean of action and objective.
I have a strong sympathy for them but nowadays they are mostly a burden for progressives and humanists.

lulwat.

If that need development, here it is :

Marxist theory are more than a century old, and the world have undergone dramatics change since then. In addition, we have one century of experience with different form of government, and particularly, Democracy.

Communism and socialism were created at the time of the industrial revolution, but since consumerism, the numeric revolution, liberalization, the rise of ecology and another thousands different phenomenon have happen.

Still, everyone is still talking about class warfare, socialism, communism,... and I feel that it's crippling the left.

Free software, economical ecology, freedom of speech, net neutrality, fight against the so-called "intellectual property", protection of the environment, transparency of the government,... should be the concern of he left right now.
Marxism has formated the left way too much.

Joss, do you know that by supporting capitalism, you support genocide. As well as by supporting theism, Christianity, moderate Islam, radical Islam, Nationalism, Rubber, Oil, America, France, Germany, Belgium (or so close).

No really, "some of them have done terrible things" is not a valid argument.

[Andir]

Still, everyone is still talking about class warfare...

That's part of being human.  It's what makes all the -isms work... even Communism.  There's still going to be that one person who manages the stocks and gets elevated to a position where they are more important than someone else.  People (humans) seek recognition and approval.  Unless you fundamentally change humanity (or severely increase the rate of technological advance,) the utopia is a pipe dream.

Even if we got to the point of "Star Trek" technology, you'd still have people fighting over the Captain's chair because of the perceived glamor and state.  "You could be one of the few people who is immortalized in a statue!"  (And that means someone else needs to step aside, or be pushed aside, to make that happen.)

[The Transcendent Tyrant]

Still, everyone is still talking about class warfare, socialism, communism,... and I feel that it's crippling the left.

Wow.

You really don't have a clue about the real world, do you?

I mean, I know Americans like to pretend that there's no such thing as class warfare in America (what is "blue-collar" and "white-collar", then?), but it's certainly a reality in the rest of the world.

Free software, economical ecology, freedom of speech, net neutrality, fight against the so-called "intellectual property", protection of the environment, transparency of the government,... should be the concern of he left right now.
Marxism has formated the left way too much.

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you?

I mean, do you know what the concept of left-wing politics is? It's the giving of rights and protections to the mass (working classes, the people who aren't rich), not some bullshit enviro-humanist agenda.

[Andir]

I mean, do you know what the concept of left-wing politics is? It's the giving of rights and protections to the mass (working classes, the people who aren't rich), not some bullshit enviro-humanist agenda.

Leftist - Take what's left over from the right (after we decide what's enough) and spread it around.
Rightist - Give people what's rightfully theirs.

 

[Soadreqm]

Some of you may have overlooked the fact that by saying "I find communist ideas acceptable" you're actually also saying "I find mass murdering or deporting innocent people acceptable."

Opposing communism means that you are siding with HITLER.

Yeah, I know that everyone already addressed this. I don't care.

The ultimate goal of Humanity is to build a drill big enough to pierce the heavens. Look in your heart, you know it to be true.

We already pierced the heavens. We pierced those heavens like the heavens were a glacier and we were trying to find out the composition of the atmosphere millenia ago by drilling ice samples from under it and I kind of forgot where I was going with this metaphor so let me just link some videos of a Saturn V rocket taking off. Holy shit that rocket is huge.

[Phmcw]

I mean, do you know what the concept of left-wing politics is? It's the giving of rights and protections to the mass (working classes, the people who aren't rich), not some bullshit enviro-humanist agenda.

First, sorry to inform you, but the mass isn't poeple that are poor, it's everybody.
Second it's not about feeding poeple or giving them enough to live, it's about giving them enough to live in comfort, freedom and a good environment.
Germinal has been real, still is in part of the world, but not in Europe, nor in America.
And since the poorest are outside our country, nationalization isn't going to help is it?

Left have to be environmentalist to defend the well being of the masses, have to defend freedom of speech, and have to realize that Marx's manifesto is old.
You're using idea that have one century without adapting them to the modern world and expect them to work.

And class warfare doesn't exist like it existed at Marx's time. I think that you don't know what you're talking about.
Ask your grandma about it. Maybe you'll realize what it was at the time.

Edit : Also, I'm Belgian. Social inequalities here are even weaker than in the US, and social permeability is also high.
Universal health-care is the norm, and education is cheap.

[Eugenitor]

The reason these topics exist is because it's the fucking year 2010 and we have no technological utopia. Apparently all the work done in the 20th century to bring us to modernity was for, if not absolutely nothing, then for precious little.

And the reason we haven't gotten anywhere in the last decade can be blamed squarely on two people:

1. George W. Bush. Few people have any idea of the damage this fucker and his hirelings did to damn near every sphere of government and commerce. "Wait, his cronies fucked THAT up too?" Yes, indeed, directly or indirectly. And Obama has neither the nutsack nor the care to actually undo it.

2. Rob Pardo. Most of you have no idea who this guy is, even if you're his greatest victims. Some business executive? Someone at Goldman Sachs? Someone in international finance, the Treasury, maybe a diplomat of some kind. No no no. Rob Pardo was lead designer on a certain project called World of Warcraft. The amount of time and effort expended into getting high-tier blues and purples has far, far exceeded that which we used to get to the Moon. If those young adults put their labor into genetics, aerospace, or anything else, we'd have had revolutions in those fields. When it comes to misuse of human life, neither Bush, nor Rove, nor anyone with the last name of Gates (Robert or Bill), can come close to this motherfucker.

[fqllve]

2. Rob Pardo. Most of you have no idea who this guy is, even if you're his greatest victims. Some business executive? Someone at Goldman Sachs? Someone in international finance, the Treasury, maybe a diplomat of some kind. No no no. Rob Pardo was lead designer on a certain project called World of Warcraft. The amount of time and effort expended into getting high-tier blues and purples has far, far exceeded that which we used to get to the Moon. If those young adults put their labor into genetics, aerospace, or anything else, we'd have had revolutions in those fields. When it comes to misuse of human life, neither Bush, nor Rove, nor anyone with the last name of Gates (Robert or Bill), can come close to this motherfucker.

It is way easier to play WoW than to do anything worthwhile though. I mean, to get high level gear you basically just have to kill the same monster over and over, right? That requires minimal effort and skill and large amounts of patience. I guess the raids might be difficult, considering you have to coordinate 40 or so people, but even then, that's not nearly the challenge of innovating in a scientific field. People play WoW so that they can have all the glory of doing great things without having to put in the insane amounts of effort required. That's a big reason why people play any video game really.

Not that WoW and its business model aren't evil, I just doubt most of the players would have done anything other than play Harvest Moon or some shit if it didn't exist.

e: farmvilles worse

[The Transcendent Tyrant]

First, sorry to inform you, but the mass isn't poeple that are poor, it's everybody.
Second it's not about feeding poeple or giving them enough to live, it's about giving them enough to live in comfort, freedom and a good environment.
Germinal has been real, still is in part of the world, but not in Europe, nor in America.
And since the poorest are outside our country, nationalization isn't going to help is it?

Read the page.

Left have to be environmentalist to defend the well being of the masses, have to defend freedom of speech, and have to realize that Marx's manifesto is old.
You're using idea that have one century without adapting them to the modern world and expect them to work.

It is a ethical ideology that has a basis in every century.

And class warfare doesn't exist like it existed at Marx's time. I think that you don't know what you're talking about.
Ask your grandma about it. Maybe you'll realize what it was at the time.

Edit : Also, I'm Belgian. Social inequalities here are even weaker than in the US, and social permeability is also high.
Universal health-care is the norm, and education is cheap.

I have a question for you: How rich are you?

[Nilocy]

2. Rob Pardo. Most of you have no idea who this guy is, even if you're his greatest victims. Some business executive? Someone at Goldman Sachs? Someone in international finance, the Treasury, maybe a diplomat of some kind. No no no. Rob Pardo was lead designer on a certain project called World of Warcraft. The amount of time and effort expended into getting high-tier blues and purples has far, far exceeded that which we used to get to the Moon. If those young adults put their labor into genetics, aerospace, or anything else, we'd have had revolutions in those fields. When it comes to misuse of human life, neither Bush, nor Rove, nor anyone with the last name of Gates (Robert or Bill), can come close to this motherfucker.

Fuck man, and by that logic we should get rid of Dwarf Fortress. You're some smart thinker there man, you might have just highlighted that people shouldn't be having fun in their free time. Ever.

[x2yzh9]

get rid of Dwarf Fortress.

HERETIC

[mainiac]

I dream about living in a Utopian society where I my labor goes towards a productive end.  So much of what I see when I look around me is people working hard at jobs that barely matter because they need the money.  Maybe it's because I live in an area with a lot of retired people and a lot of people providing services to the retired people.  But how many damn waiters does the world need?  How many sales clerks?

We say that capitalism is necessary because there is scarcity.  But at some point we need to ask why we produce so much more then we used to but there is still so much scarcity.  We've got five times as much stuff per person then we did a hundred years ago.  How can we be rich enough to afford more cars then people but not be rich enough to afford decent public transportation or making sure everyone has food?

[Virex]

I don't think people can be happy without competition. There have been studies that indicate that people don't get happy by having money but they do get happy when they start getting more then their neighbors. A system that eliminates competition would only breed other forms of competition.