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Author Topic: SanDiego's realistic tissue rebalance  (Read 26458 times)

SanDiego

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SanDiego's realistic tissue rebalance
« on: November 23, 2010, 03:05:42 pm »

Greetings,
being a medical student and therefore curious about anything medicine-related in DF I poked around tissue_template_default and saw there is much to improve. I managed to reform tissues to greater realism, so expect more pain (mostly), more blood (never a bad thing!) and some other tweaks. However, I haven't tested it thoroughly, so I need your feedback on real playability. Generally, my arena runs suggest that deep wounds are much worse than before (heavy bleeding and extreme pain) and battles tend to produce a little more blood. Full changes listed in spoiler.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

LINK: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=3473
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 05:24:06 am by SanDiego »
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Dutchling

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Re: SanDiego's realistic tissue rebalance
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2010, 03:15:49 pm »

That's a lot of pain  :o
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Lancensis

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Re: SanDiego's realistic tissue rebalance
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2010, 03:16:52 pm »

So do creatures bleed out faster in general? I've been a bit frustrated with how long they take to die from upper body hacks.
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SanDiego

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Re: SanDiego's realistic tissue rebalance
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2010, 03:18:49 pm »

Generally, flesh wounds like torn muscles or punctured lungs should bleed only slightly faster, but vitals like heart or liver should bleed a lot faster. I am trying to try how faster, but it's alas impossible to aim attack organs...
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(Warning: Do not ask about the manufacturing process for gecko sauce)
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Akjosch

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Re: SanDiego's realistic tissue rebalance
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2010, 03:20:55 pm »

While you're at it, muscles on insects don't have any arteries and could use a specialised tissue. :)
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Kiktamo

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Re: SanDiego's realistic tissue rebalance
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2010, 05:13:54 pm »

Generally, flesh wounds like torn muscles or punctured lungs should bleed only slightly faster, but vitals like heart or liver should bleed a lot faster. I am trying to try how faster, but it's alas impossible to aim attack organs...

Not sure but I believe temporarily removing the [small] tag on organs should allow you to target them or at least most of them.
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SanDiego

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Re: SanDiego's realistic tissue rebalance
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2010, 05:30:56 pm »

While you're at it, muscles on insects don't have any arteries and could use a specialised tissue. :)
As a matter of fact, insect lack any blood vessels - they just have tubular "heart" that moves fluids around their bodies.
Not sure but I believe temporarily removing the [small] tag on organs should allow you to target them or at least most of them.
I will have look at it tomorrow, thanks.

And by the way - two fractures plus torn muscle is now enough to cause you prolonged extreme pain and make you pass out now and then (tested in arena with base stats).
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3

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Re: SanDiego's realistic tissue rebalance
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2010, 05:37:44 pm »

As a matter of fact, insect lack any blood vessels - they just have tubular "heart" that moves fluids around their bodies.

The question is whether or not such a system should be considered viable for giant insects and such - they already have "blood" in-game in the form of ichor, so perhaps it's more practical to assume that they have some kind of vertebrate-esque circulation system.

Of course, fixing the vascularity issue wouldn't be difficult, but it would require modifying the creature raws.
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TomiTapio

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Re: SanDiego's realistic tissue rebalance
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2010, 05:39:54 pm »

Cool! I've tried making my own tweaks so animals dont pass out from pain from hammer to toe/ankle.

I put Brain to    [VASCULAR:180]   [PAIN_RECEPTORS:100] -- for Shock, and for hunted birds to die of bolt to brain
Lungs to    [VASCULAR:83]    [PAIN_RECEPTORS:45]
Heart    [VASCULAR:95]   [PAIN_RECEPTORS:60] --"heart bruised -> unconscious"
genitalia (Genesis mod specific) tissue    [VASCULAR:13] [PAIN_RECEPTORS:7]
Kidney    [VASCULAR:35] [PAIN_RECEPTORS:35]
Hoof    [HEALING_RATE:1500] --hooves are giant fingernails  [PAIN_RECEPTORS:5]
Muscle    [VASCULAR:16]   [PAIN_RECEPTORS:11]

And most importantly,
BONE    [VASCULAR:11]   [PAIN_RECEPTORS:29]  (bleeding from broken bone smashing nearby veins etc. because blunt was crap compared to "torso flies!!!!")

ps. in Genesis, I and Deon have double-strength bones and muscles and tendons for bad-ass monsters like ogres and caves' beasts.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 05:44:20 pm by TomiTapio »
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i2amroy

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Re: SanDiego's realistic tissue rebalance
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2010, 08:55:51 pm »

Just wanted to point out that if this is more realistic than someone should probably bring it to Toady's attention after any bugs are worked out. After all, if Great Cthulhu can add melting temperatures and other values to the rocks, you as a med student should be able to contribute some knowledge to the tissues of DF.
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dennislp3

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Re: SanDiego's realistic tissue rebalance
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2010, 09:10:48 pm »

Watching for sure
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Brandstone

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Re: SanDiego's realistic tissue rebalance
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2010, 09:27:33 pm »

guess it will make incestuous beast a little tougher
hehehe incestuous

SanDiego

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Re: SanDiego's realistic tissue rebalance
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2010, 05:41:59 am »

guess it will make incestuous beast a little tougher
hehehe incestuous
Damn spellchecker in mozzila, it was supposed to be 'insectuous'
As a matter of fact, insect lack any blood vessels - they just have tubular "heart" that moves fluids around their bodies.

The question is whether or not such a system should be considered viable for giant insects and such - they already have "blood" in-game in the form of ichor, so perhaps it's more practical to assume that they have some kind of vertebrate-esque circulation system.

Of course, fixing the vascularity issue wouldn't be difficult, but it would require modifying the creature raws.
Well, size is the least problem, it's about body complexity. Actually, the open circulatory system is more effective for simple organisms than closed would be. Insects do have blood (well, rather ""blood"", it is sometimes called haemolymph as it works as blood and lymph together) and it circulates through their body cavity transporting nutrients and removing catabolites. Insects in fact have very few organs - gut, gonads, heart, some nervous ganglia, muscles and maybe few else that are beyond my knowledge. They are very simple organisms, they just cannot grow too much as their chitinous exoskeleton has it's limits, but the gigantic insect beasties are fantasy after all so let's pretend magic strenghtens their body.
What I am aiming at is, that simple creature as insect does not need such complex circulatory system as a highly organised system like human body.
Cool! I've tried making my own tweaks so animals dont pass out from pain from hammer to toe/ankle.

I put Brain to    [VASCULAR:180]   [PAIN_RECEPTORS:100] -- for Shock, and for hunted birds to die of bolt to brain
genitalia (Genesis mod specific) tissue    [VASCULAR:13] [PAIN_RECEPTORS:7]
BONE    [VASCULAR:11]   [PAIN_RECEPTORS:29]  (bleeding from broken bone smashing nearby veins etc. because blunt was crap compared to "torso flies!!!!")

ps. in Genesis, I and Deon have double-strength bones and muscles and tendons for bad-ass monsters like ogres and caves' beasts.
So, one thing after another. Brain itself has no pain receptors at all - that's why brain surgeries can be done under local anaesthesia. What is sensitive though are the meninges. So, the meninges hurt a lot, but anything under them does not - you can poke into exposed brain with (relatively - meninges are still complaining about being cut) no pain. That's why I set the pain sensitivity below yours.
Genitalia - they should have MUCH more pain receptors. In extreme cases severe trauma to testicles is LETHAL.
Bone - they should have more pain receptors, again. It may not look like it, but bone is richly inervated structure - periost (the topmost layer of bone) is very sensitive, if you just cut your bone a bit it hurts. And bone marrow is also a bit sensitive.
About the stronger bones - now I just mess with tissues, but if it works out right I may start doing stunts with default bodies and then maybe some creatures.
Just wanted to point out that if this is more realistic than someone should probably bring it to Toady's attention after any bugs are worked out. After all, if Great Cthulhu can add melting temperatures and other values to the rocks, you as a med student should be able to contribute some knowledge to the tissues of DF.
I may write down what I think may be relevant, but I think Toady has more pressing issues at hand now.


EDIT: made new version after my arena testing. Changes: More vascularisation for fat (lava related injuries should now cause more bleeding) and nervous tissue; teeth now vascularised (so, losing a tooth should cause minor bleeding and acompanying pain), small increase in brain vascularisation, increase in lung vascularisation and pain (lung punctures should yield much more satysfying results now), really bumped heart pain (elephant running around with heart mangled by platinum warhammer just just isn't good).
Main problem remains in the way how game handles bleeding. Even 'pale' creatures will eventually stop bleeding and will be just fine.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 07:12:08 am by SanDiego »
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Welcome to Murdermachines. Try the gecko sauce; it's delectable and delightful, a wonderful blend of savory and spicy that makes any dish delicious without being too overwhelming.

(Warning: Do not ask about the manufacturing process for gecko sauce)
(Warning: Gecko sauce may cause acute respiratory failure on contact)

calrogman

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Re: SanDiego's realistic tissue rebalance
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2010, 07:24:26 am »

Just wanted to point out that if this is more realistic than someone should probably bring it to Toady's attention after any bugs are worked out. After all, if Great Cthulhu can add melting temperatures and other values to the rocks, you as a med student should be able to contribute some knowledge to the tissues of DF.
I may write down what I think may be relevant, but I think Toady has more pressing issues at hand now.
I'm sure Toady would be grateful for any contributions made to the raws which push DF just a little bit closer to the quantum physics simulator it will eventually become.
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SanDiego

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Re: SanDiego's realistic tissue rebalance
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2010, 07:33:23 am »

Okay, I will write up something after I return from my molecular biology class.
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Welcome to Murdermachines. Try the gecko sauce; it's delectable and delightful, a wonderful blend of savory and spicy that makes any dish delicious without being too overwhelming.

(Warning: Do not ask about the manufacturing process for gecko sauce)
(Warning: Gecko sauce may cause acute respiratory failure on contact)
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