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[Jeoshua]

I understand more about brain plasticity than reading about it in Popular Science.  And Glial cells, as well.  Actually the idea that we use 10% of our brains is based on the idea that 90% of our brains are Glials.

Trick is Gials can turn into Neurons.  And since we have so many more of them, the loss of Neuronal tissue isn't as permanently devastating as the lack of a healing rate in the raws might imply.  Sure, most people would kill off their characters before they were able to "re-learn" whatever they needed to after their brain damage.  But it can happen anyways.  I enjoy playing with a 10k healing rate on nerves and brain tissue, just thought you'd like to know why.

[Deon]

I would like to mention TomiTapio's post which was not discussed at all.

The only two effects of pain are an unconsciousness and slowdown. Thus we should go from this, not from "strain" and "pain" etc. receptors' understanding.

Obviously some organ damage should be very deadly. For example, a punctured stomach is a VERY painful death from your own stomach liquid getting in your major blood vessels.

About the issue about fat and muscled heads: we could change VERTEBRATE_TISSUE_LAYERS so there's only a skin around the skull. In any case the existing muscle/fat only matters in the area of face (which already has stuff like nose, cheekbones, lips etc. which already consist of tissues) so we could drop the fat and the muscle from the rest of the head.

One could make a bit tougher bone template just for skulls too, it's easy to make. At least to stop kicks and punches from jamming through skulls.

[Jeoshua]

I was thinking of this, as well.  While I'm sure the PAIN_RECEPTOR values in this mod are completely accurate involving the relative amount of pain-receiving nerve cells found in said tissue types, it doesn't quite do the same trick as reality, due to DF's abstracted nature.

For example, the brain actually contains very few - if any - true pain receptors.  But if your brain gets rattled around violently you pass out.  So if anything, due to DF's pain effects, it should have the MOST pain receptors, even if none of those neurons in the brain really do have that special sensor for pain on the end.

[Deon]

From my experience, any brain damage = instant death, so I doubt it matters.

[darkflagrance]

From my experience, any brain damage = instant death, so I doubt it matters.

Not exactly; bruised brains merely lead to vegetable dwarves, as the ten beds in my infirmary full of former militia members proves.

[SanDiego]

Trick is Gials can turn into Neurons.

Trick is they can't. If you want more thorough answer ask via PM, this is no place for neurohistological lecture.

About the issue about fat and muscled heads: we could change VERTEBRATE_TISSUE_LAYERS so there's only a skin around the skull. In any case the existing muscle/fat only matters in the area of face (which already has stuff like nose, cheekbones, lips etc. which already consist of tissues) so we could drop the fat and the muscle from the rest of the head.

One could make a bit tougher bone template just for skulls too, it's easy to make. At least to stop kicks and punches from jamming through skulls.

Thanks for the idea, I'll try to make something out of it.

For example, the brain actually contains very few - if any - true pain receptors.  But if your brain gets rattled around violently you pass out.  So if anything, due to DF's pain effects, it should have the MOST pain receptors, even if none of those neurons in the brain really do have that special sensor for pain on the end.

Well, brain (and liver for that matter, though I decided to ignore that little fact) have no pain receptors at all. But brain is encased by multiple (three actually) meninges and those do feel pain. I'm sure I mentioned this few times now. Also, I do not feel any further need to increase brain sensitivity - from my experiences any damage to brain is either disabling or downright deadly.

EDIT: result unexpected, yet not unwelcome


EDIT2: Aaand here we go! Version 0.8 features more gruesome head injuries! http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=3473

Changes: Major update, changes made mainly in b_detail_plan_default (particularly vertebrate body plan): removed fat from head and weakened it's muscle layer, added a bit of bone; removed fat from hands, feet and wings; made ribs more fragile (i.e. halved their thickness); removed muscle and fat from fingers; removed fat and muslce from fin, added a bit of skin; removed fat from lips; reduced cheek skin thickness and added thin muscle layer; reduced throat and eyelid skin layer to 10% of former state.

[Deon]

This is looking really good. I think this soon will be a must-have for any self-respecting large mod . If you don't mind, I would use your mod as a component for genesis (with full credit) since the Arrkhal tweaks are very outdated, and mine and TomiTapio's tweaks do not include some very clever moves (including my recent suggestions ).

[SanDiego]

By all means do! There is no higher praise for minor tweaker like me than to be included in a major mod

[Deon]

Thank you. I hope you don't mind if I make some stuff more brutal, like bleeding . But I am working on a new release right now, so you could make it in the next release, it would be great if I could get enough time for that.

[Jeoshua]

Fair enough, SanDiego.  For what it's worth I really enjoy this mod, and my own personal changes are simple enough they don't even really need to be discussed.  I like miraculous recoveries, and if I want them in my game it's LITERALLY one raw tag that I need to add in manually.  So to each his own on that.

The detail plan changes intrigue me.  As does the neural tissue being strands.  So far, the only tissue layers with that shape have been hair, and I wonder how the game interprets them.  Intuitively, I would think this would make their severing more likely on a small scale, but less likely on a full scale.  It seems that layers, once damaged, are considered completely wrecked, but not so for strands.  So this could very well be a good change.  However, I don't think that the nerve "strands" are now connected to anything in quite the way that nerves would actually be connected... Either way it shouldn't HURT this mod and might actually future-proof it a little bit.

[SanDiego]

About the nervous tissue strands - I also was curious what effect it would have, possibly becoming more realistic, as nerves do not form layer, but they form 'strands' like blood vessels do.

Thank you. I hope you don't mind if I make some stuff more brutal, like bleeding . But I am working on a new release right now, so you could make it in the next release, it would be great if I could get enough time for that.

In DF, you can't do any bad by adding more blood.

[Jeoshua]

With bleeding in vanilla, I've seen creatures paint their blood for levels and levels, sometimes all the way across a whole map, without bleeding out.  Given that the blood spots are really not very sensitive to how much blood there is, only THAT there is blood... I'd say making there be "more blood" would make creatures less likely to paint a whole map in red, and more likely to die from massive blood loss.

So yeah... deffinitely supported.

[Pride]

Any further updates with this?

[Putnam]

Since it's been a few months, I'd say probably no. Doesn't stop it from being a must-have for me. I'm probably going to include it in my troll mod, for balance purposes.

[Meph]

Sorry for the necro, but I will include this in my mod. Dont know if the author is still around, but I would like to ask permission anyhow. From his previous posts I'd that this would be ok for him though