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[KaelGotDwarves]

I really like these ideas, but in being unable to play and test in DF, do these gameplay tweaks simulate pretty well?

Some of those numbers look fairly haphazard, although I suppose they must get the point across.

[G-Flex]

Chitin: removed vascularisation and regeneration (it's not even a tissue, it's just kind of saccharide some insects use for their exoskeletons), much lower pain sensitivity (guess it will make insectuous beast a little tougher)

I take issue with this, because the chitin isn't just placed there automagically by the aether. "Chitin" in this case includes the underlying, living material producing it. After all, the top layer of skin is dead, but there's still living stuff underneath that as well. There are growth layers underneath the carapace, is my point, and you're essentially making the entire thing painless. You're removing an insect's ability to even regenerate its own carapace, which is obviously false, since insects obviously do regenerate that, and even grow more from scratch just as we grow skin or hair.

[SanDiego]

Sorry for being off horizon for so long, but some serious RL issues hit me hard (they call it exams. I call it SM session). Right now I'm back on track and taking suggestions. Will look into the chitin issue.

[G-Flex]

I might have been a little hasty in my last post here, since I know arthropods tend to molt instead of constantly growing new exoskeleton... but obviously that isn't simulated in-game, so perhaps regeneration is still the best option. I really have no idea how an insect's body responds to trauma of the exoskeleton, though.

[IT 000]

Great job!  I've modded the tissue a little bit in Corrosion, but I've never thought of doing in depth research like this. Keep up the great work!

[Jeoshua]

Finish this, make it realistic but not unbalanced, and it may replace IT 000's work in my raws

[Deon]

Just wanted to point out that if this is more realistic than someone should probably bring it to Toady's attention after any bugs are worked out. After all, if Great Cthulhu can add melting temperatures and other values to the rocks, you as a med student should be able to contribute some knowledge to the tissues of DF.

I am pretty sure that Toady doesn't bother about it before he finishes towns and trading. If it's not the case, then it would be great, but there were tons of popular mods with more realistic and deadly tissue/material settings and he didn't try to update the raws to make the combat more lethal even once.

[G-Flex]

There are also problems that aren't directly related to the raws. As a result of this, more realistic raws won't necessarily result in more realistic combat (yet).

For instance, there's no way to make ribs consistently get in the way of organ blows without results like you see in my signature, since the ribs are checked independently.

Also, I'm not sure if I've mentioned this before, but it seems like all blows against a body in DF are treated as if that body is held perfectly still, or against a wall or something. In real life, if you punch someone in the arm, much of that force just moves the arm out of the way, whereas if the arm is held in place, you're much likelier to break it. It's like every time you kick someone in the head in DF, you're curbstomping them, or kicking them against a wall or something. This is only a suspicion on my part, but it would explain some things.

Also, I believe one reason skulls break so easily is because certain things aren't factored in at all, such as the shape of the skull contributing to its durability, or the bone structure of the skull possibly differing from most other bones.

That leads me to another comment which I'm not sure has been addressed yet: It seems like heads in DF have fairly normal tissue layer relative thickness, comparable to either arms or torsos (I forget). As a result, a fat guy in DF has a whole lot of fat over his skull, and same with strong guys and muscle. This is a little silly!

[SanDiego]

Result of the exoskeleton query: I consulted my friend who has degree in biology and found out that the chitinous layers are produced by epidermis and they cannot be regenerated - only regrown once beastie in question molts. He also said there probably is a way they fill the gaps, but not with functional chitinous layers - therefore I will leave the [SCARS] tag where it is and won't return the regeneration (after all, it won't have much of an gameplay impact unless someone mods dwarves to have chitin instead of skin).

G-Flex: there are much more issues than the way game handles the body - like blood stream, intravascular volume and reactions to loss of thereof. As of now, there are no shock reaction to blood loss and apparently even after great blood loss beast (elephant this time; I had him PAINT with his blood trail and made him loose a good deal of blood, yet after the bleeding stopped, he got on just fine). What I look forward to - set intravascular volume (8% of creatures would be good, no need to go in differences between species), hypovolemic shock, blood stream in major arteries - cut femoral artery means you're dead in 60-90 seconds unless swift and radical help arrives. Also, blood gushing.

It would be good to see Toady adress theese matters after he finishes caravan arc.

[Necro910]

To summarize this mod:

Dwarves will bleed out and pass out in pain even faster, and giant cave spiders are being returned to glory.

[Jeoshua]

It's not as badass as the organ pain that Corrosion has tho, that's for sure.

[devek]

It also cracks me up to when you cut multiple limbs off something and it is still fighting back.

Doesn't a sudden drop in blood pressure cause you to pass out?

I also hate how nonsensical blunt damage can be at times.

[SanDiego]

Aaaand here goes version 0.6! Changelog:

Made shell thicker and non-regenerative, gave ivory the same improvements I gave to teeth (i.e. nociception and vascularisation), made nervous tissue [TISSUE_SHAPE] STRANDS rather than LAYER, will see how this works out.

Could someone with playful nature examine whether nervous structures (most notably spine and nerves) behave differently now?

[Jeoshua]

Suggestion:

Add a very slow healing rate to Nerves and Brains.  Brains exhibit high plasticity, in that you could lose half your brain and eventually walk and talk again.  Nerves should regrow slowly, too, if only for game balance.  I have mine with a 10k healing rate, and dwarves who have their nerves severed eventually do get up and walk again.  I'm not sure precisely how long it will take at that rate, tho.

Maybe a paralyzed guy will never be able to walk again, but after enough time they should find a way to compensate naturally (using different muscles, stances, etc)

[SanDiego]

Nerves do regenerate slowly (REALLY slowly, about 1 mm/day), but muscles that have been denervated for too long are subject to irreversible denervation atrophy - if a nerve is damaged near the muscle it supplies it will regenerate (provided it is stitched together) in time, but otherwise it will take too long to have effect - not even modern neurosurgery can change that, I doubt DWARVEN surgery could do more.

Ad brain plasticity - this is the reason I hate popular scientific magazines. Brain contains two types of cells - neurons (the effector cells) and glial cells (support function). Trick is, that neurons do not regenerate. Ever (there are some researches undergo as we speak, but they are still theoretical). Any damage to brain (provided it is survived) heals with GLIAL scar - non functional tissue. You probably also heard that brain cortex exercises a certain degree of plasticity - but not everywhere. Evolutionary young cortical centers like those for understanding/forming speech, reading etc. can move if the damage is not too great (therefore patients with stroke eventually start talking again - sometimes). But motor cortex and sensory cortex can't just swim around - they just are there. Some lower species (rats) can live quite happily with no cortex at all, other (frogs) can even make go without head (unless they need to eat that is). But evolutionary more advanced creatures cannot exist without their cortical centers (well, they can exist, but not function properly). Much less subcortical centers.