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Which one is better?

Dwarf Fortress
Minecraft
Both

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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortess or Minecraft?  (Read 50114 times)

Mdort Goblinsmiter

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Re: Dwarf Fortess or Minecraft?
« Reply #195 on: November 29, 2010, 03:09:38 pm »

Having spent hours on both I can safely say I enjoy playing DF more then MC.

However... MC has it's charms.

Politics and C++ discussion aside, I think the question can be boiled down to what do you end up playing more?
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Dwarf Fortess or Minecraft?
« Reply #196 on: November 29, 2010, 03:44:07 pm »

I do admire Notch for not letting his ego get in the way of taking on extra programmers. I understand why Toady doesn't, though I completely disagree with him. I feel Toady is withholding something beautiful from the world by not putting a team together.

By chance, where do you get this from?

The assumption that something must be wrong with Toady for him to not want help with his game.
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breadbocks

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Re: Dwarf Fortess or Minecraft?
« Reply #197 on: November 29, 2010, 05:40:55 pm »

Well, the developer of Minecraft supports people who can't afford his game to torrent it. He wrote a large blog post about how piracy is inevitable, and instead of creating DRMs that just shun paying customers, use the pirates to your advantage. If someone isn't going to pay for minecraft, they aren't going to pay for it. He'd rather have pirates enjoy his game, who then tell their friends, who are new potential customers.
*Gasp* Where? I simply MUST know where the combo breaking game developer stashed his broken chain.
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OperatorPants

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Re: Dwarf Fortess or Minecraft?
« Reply #198 on: November 29, 2010, 08:58:35 pm »

Well, the developer of Minecraft supports people who can't afford his game to torrent it. He wrote a large blog post about how piracy is inevitable, and instead of creating DRMs that just shun paying customers, use the pirates to your advantage. If someone isn't going to pay for minecraft, they aren't going to pay for it. He'd rather have pirates enjoy his game, who then tell their friends, who are new potential customers.
*Gasp* Where? I simply MUST know where the combo breaking game developer stashed his broken chain.

http://notch.tumblr.com/post/1121596044/how-piracy-works

[Everything in this post is purely my own personal opinion, and may not reflect the opinions of everyone working at Mojang Specifications!]

Large parts of the culture these days exists in a world where copies are free. Copying a physical book costs money, but copying a digital movie is free. In fact, simply moving a movie from one hard drive to another actually copies the movie first, then deletes the original. Copying games is also free. No resources are lost, nobody loses any money, and more people are having fun.

To people who want to get paid for their digital works, myself included, that is a bit of a problem. All of society and economics is based on an old outdated model where giving something to someone would rid the original owner of their copy, so everyone who wanted a copy had to buy one from someone else who would lose theirs, and the only source of new copies was you. There might be actual development costs involved in making these copies. For example, for every wheel in the market, someone had to make that wheel. With digital copies, you only need to make the wheel once.

I won’t bother analyzing why people copy games and other digital media, as that’s really a moot point. We’ve got an amazingly effective way of distributing culture that is extremely beneficial for humanity, but it clashes with our current economical models. Piracy will win in the long run. It has to. The alternative is too scary.

If someone pirates Minecraft instead of buying it, it means I’ve lost some “potential” revenue. Not actual revenue, as I can never go into debt by people pirating the game too much, but I might’ve made even more if that person had bought the game instead. But what if that person likes that game, talks about it to his or her friends, and then I manage to convince three of them to buy the game? I’d make three actual sales instead of blocking out the potentially missed sale of the original person which never cost me any money in the first case.

Instead of just relying on guilt tripping pirates into buying, or wasting time and money trying to stop them, I can offer online-only services that actually add to the game experience. Online level saving, centralized skins, friends lists and secure name verification for multiplayer. None of these features can be accessed by people with pirated versions of the game, and hopefully they can be features that turn pirates from thieves into potential customers.

Please don’t interpret this text as me being fine with people pirating Minecraft. I’d MUCH rather have people pay for it so I can reinvest in hiring people and developing more cool games in the future. It’s also quite possible that if I get into a business deal with a larger company, there might be a larger push towards fighting piracy mostly because they’d require it, and I understand why they’d want that.

But why fight the biggest revolution in information flow since the printing press when you could easily work with it by adding services that actually add some value beyond the free act of making a digital copy?

In other news, I’m voting for either Piratpartiet or Miljöpartiet in the Swedish elections on Sunday.
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Kogan Loloklam

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Re: Dwarf Fortess or Minecraft?
« Reply #199 on: November 29, 2010, 09:22:45 pm »

I'm suprised that we only have 8 people who have voted for minecraft. This thread has been here long enough to be severely trolled by the drones from minecraft.

But anyway...

Something to note about the different styles of programming...
The Night creature update took 38 days from villages. To go from the last major update's final bug fixes tweaks to villages, it took 67 days.
To go from the major changes that was dwarf fortress 2010 to the night creatures took 225 days.
Now there was a huge more than a year delay between 2010 and 40d. There are similar rates of updates for other major changes.

Minecraft is only a little over a year old. So the entire development cycle of minecraft would correspond to Toady going from 40d to 2010.


The question is, Has minecraft from early stages of release changed to such a degree that it is a different game, like 2d to 3d, or 40d to 2010, or 2010 base to the upcoming caravan change (which will probably equal about a total of year development time)

If the answer is NOT yes, then there is something seriously wrong with Notch, since Notch is a professional game developer and Toady is just a math professor who had a hobby.

Toady probably could not work with any other programmers anymore. He's so far outside their box and their way of thinking and so deep into his own style... It'd probably be like pulling an Indigenous Native from the Rainforests of Brazil who has had limited contact with the modern world, and dropping him right into the control room of a nuclear submarine and expect him to be able to circumnavigate the globe with it.


As for piracy, I'm joining the Pirate Party next election cycle in the USA. The internet is not a national treasure, it is a world treasure, and internet freedom must be protected.
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Cruxador

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Re: Dwarf Fortess or Minecraft?
« Reply #200 on: November 29, 2010, 09:59:23 pm »

As for piracy, I'm joining the Pirate Party next election cycle in the USA. The internet is not a national treasure, it is a world treasure, and internet freedom must be protected.
If you're in the US, you're better served joining a relevant interest group than a third party. Third parties almost always accomplish nothing, whereas interest groups tend to be quite successful in influencing the votes on matters that are relevant to them.

Unfortunately I am unaware as to what interest group would best serve you here.
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Kogan Loloklam

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Re: Dwarf Fortess or Minecraft?
« Reply #201 on: November 29, 2010, 11:13:33 pm »

If you're in the US, you're better served joining a relevant interest group than a third party. Third parties almost always accomplish nothing, whereas interest groups tend to be quite successful in influencing the votes on matters that are relevant to them.

Unfortunately I am unaware as to what interest group would best serve you here.
Party affiliation for anyone who isn't Republican or Democrat doesn't matter except in the message that the number of registered voters are in those parties.

8000 people cannot generate the revenue that 835000 people can generate, but seeing that 4000 people are there, and your figures are 799000 to 835000 people, you might look at those 8000 people and think that the 723000 unaffiliated might consider some of the issues that those 4000 who are clearly "throwing their vote away" are important. As such, things like extension of the right to privacy into online protected space might just become part of a platform.

Now I know I can actively get quite a lot of people in the 18-35 age group to join a party based around the Platform of the Pirate Party. I believe that with just a little bit of effort, I could make the Pirate Party the third largest political party in my state. I have no desire to put forth that effort, but I will put forth the effort to write out a word on a voter registration card to demonstrate my dissatisfaction with the current issues that the other parties are focusing on.

I don't give a elf's ear about gay marriage. I do agree that trademarks should not appear as the central issue on any dispute not arising from fraud.
THIS SHOULD NEVER BE POSSIBLE!
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monk12

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Re: Dwarf Fortess or Minecraft?
« Reply #202 on: November 29, 2010, 11:24:41 pm »

And of course, it can be argued that third parties do not succeed because the most successful ones get incorporated into either the Democrats or Republicans. They deprive one of the parties of votes, which can sometimes be the difference maker in elections. Notably, the Progressive Party, Theodore Roosevelts Bull Moose Party, and the Populist Party made an appreciable difference in different Presidential elections, and most recently the Tea Party has swayed votes in the latest midterm election.

Of course, the reason that many third parties do not succeed is because they are too niche. The Pirate Party might be attractive to many people, but it is not likely to become something that will influence a great number of voters on election day.

Incidentally, how many derails has this thread had now?

Max White

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Re: Dwarf Fortess or Minecraft?
« Reply #203 on: November 29, 2010, 11:28:42 pm »

Wow, American politics is so much fun! Who dosn't love extream veiws on both ends of the scale.

Here in Australia, not many people realy care at all what one of the two major partys get in, on the basis that they are so similar, it dosn't matter. And any points they do differ on are so controversial, not much ever gets done about them. We just swap partys every few elections to make sure neither party thinks too highly of themselves.

It works!

MrWiggles

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Re: Dwarf Fortess or Minecraft?
« Reply #204 on: November 29, 2010, 11:30:27 pm »

The question is, Has minecraft from early stages of release changed to such a degree that it is a different game, like 2d to 3d, or 40d to 2010, or 2010 base to the upcoming caravan change (which will probably equal about a total of year development time)

If the answer is NOT yes, then there is something seriously wrong with Notch, since Notch is a professional game developer and Toady is just a math professor who had a hobby.
I think the answer can be said to be no. Notch, used another words to spring board his work. It so far in my opinion doesn't seem to be terribly different then Infiniminer(sp). To my knowledge didn't require any significant rewrites to it; whereas The Dreaded Year of No Releases did so.

Also, I dont believe something can be called a hobby if its the activity that he derives his income from.

Quote
Toady probably could not work with any other programmers anymore. He's so far outside their box and their way of thinking and so deep into his own style... It'd probably be like pulling an Indigenous Native from the Rainforests of Brazil who has had limited contact with the modern world, and dropping him right into the control room of a nuclear submarine and expect him to be able to circumnavigate the globe with it.
This is just speculation. We have no knowledge of Toady coding habits, or his design habits. And there is also some baseless speculation about Toady ability to adjust to new working environment.

Quote
As for piracy, I'm joining the Pirate Party next election cycle in the USA. The internet is not a national treasure, it is a world treasure, and internet freedom must be protected.

So, what are the ideals of the pirate party?


All valid points, but look at Dwarf Fortress when it was only a year old, and look at Minecraft now.

We don't know what state DF was in when it was a year old. It wasn't publicly released. Also, DF didn't have another game as a basis. So, I find this point moot in any regard anyhow.

Quote
In 5 years Minecraft may become something much bigger than it currently is. It has massive potential, and that's why it interests me. When I first started playing I was making fortresses and cities out of 5 different blocks, and going online and building castles with my friends. Now I'm gathering wood and coal for the coming long nights, as I toil away in the mines below gathering cobblestone, coal, and rare ores so I may build a glorious shrine to my own success.

In five years, Notch may very well be working on something else. How long has he committed to previous titles?

As for its potential, if its dev notes are anything to consider about its near to moderate future; not really. There are some neat items, but most of it is iterative and derivative thats been done.

Quote
And what's wrong with selling a video game? When did making money become a bad thing? It's not like he sold out or anything.
Nothing. It hasn't.
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Max White

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Re: Dwarf Fortess or Minecraft?
« Reply #205 on: November 29, 2010, 11:34:51 pm »

Also, I dont believe something can be called a hobby if its the activity that he derives his income from.

Well we must define income then! Let us assume 'income' extends beyond financial profit, and that it refers to the gathering of any resource.

As a hobby, I look after a pot plant with a strawberry plant. This hobby gives me an income of strawberrys.

OperatorPants

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Re: Dwarf Fortess or Minecraft?
« Reply #206 on: November 29, 2010, 11:47:55 pm »

If you really think a job cannot be a hobby, I truly feel sorry for you, for I don't know the regret you must feel for picking a bland and unfulfilling career. I have a job doing what I have always wanted to do since I was a boy in junior high school. Every day is fun, and work just flies by. I often bring work home because of how much fun I have doing it.

Edit : And anyone who says Minecraft is like Infiniminer still, clearly hasn't played either enough to make that judgment.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 01:20:41 am by OperatorPants »
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MrWiggles

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Re: Dwarf Fortess or Minecraft?
« Reply #207 on: November 29, 2010, 11:49:41 pm »

Also, I dont believe something can be called a hobby if its the activity that he derives his income from.

Well we must define income then! Let us assume 'income' extends beyond financial profit, and that it refers to the gathering of any resource.

As a hobby, I look after a pot plant with a strawberry plant. This hobby gives me an income of strawberrys.

Lets not, and stick with the implicit colloquial definition within the statement. It being monetary income, which he derives his living from.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Dwarf Fortess or Minecraft?
« Reply #208 on: November 29, 2010, 11:54:41 pm »

If you really think a job cannot be a hobby, I truly feel sorry for you, for I don't know the regret you must feel for picking a bland and fulfilling career. I have a job doing what I have always wanted to do since I was a boy in junior high school. Every day is fun, and work just flies by. I often bring work home because of how much fun I have doing it.

Well, if taken within the context that hobby was being used; it was being used in contrast to Notch professionalism. Therefore in the given statement; hobby doesn't mean profession.

I was countering this statement, by demonstrating that Toady hobby is where he derives his finical income and therefore within the given context, was not a hobby.
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breadbocks

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Re: Dwarf Fortess or Minecraft?
« Reply #209 on: November 30, 2010, 12:11:28 am »

If you're in the US, you're better served joining a relevant interest group than a third party. Third parties almost always accomplish nothing, whereas interest groups tend to be quite successful in influencing the votes on matters that are relevant to them.

Unfortunately I am unaware as to what interest group would best serve you here.
Party affiliation for anyone who isn't Republican or Democrat doesn't matter except in the message that the number of registered voters are in those parties.

8000 people cannot generate the revenue that 835000 people can generate, but seeing that 4000 people are there, and your figures are 799000 to 835000 people, you might look at those 8000 people and think that the 723000 unaffiliated might consider some of the issues that those 4000 who are clearly "throwing their vote away" are important. As such, things like extension of the right to privacy into online protected space might just become part of a platform.

Now I know I can actively get quite a lot of people in the 18-35 age group to join a party based around the Platform of the Pirate Party. I believe that with just a little bit of effort, I could make the Pirate Party the third largest political party in my state. I have no desire to put forth that effort, but I will put forth the effort to write out a word on a voter registration card to demonstrate my dissatisfaction with the current issues that the other parties are focusing on.

I don't give a elf's ear about gay marriage. I do agree that trademarks should not appear as the central issue on any dispute not arising from fraud.
THIS SHOULD NEVER BE POSSIBLE!
See, just by getting the word out, you just got a new supporter. The Pirate Party lines up damn exactly with my beliefs. I've never heard about it till now, so I couldn't support it until now. Thank you.
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