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Dwarf Fortress

Minecraft

Both

[forsaken1111]

Good points! 

[Max White]

For Notch and Toady are great Game Programmers in my opinion.

Well, great game developers to say the least, but great programmers? The origenal DF was build in C (If I am correct, and these days its C++ right?) and therefor I admire him to no end of being able to build what is without question an OOP project without the paradime, truely a coding king! The script must have had more go to's then asking for directions in New York!
Notch? I don't know, did he use any premade engine to do hes 3D graphics? I mean from a programming point of veiw wha he has done isn't realy as impressive as toady, even for its nice graphics. IF he did make the blocks himself, though, that is worth a few points, must have been a lot of effort to get up, but these days it isn't realy needed, as there are so many 3D packages to support you.

[Duelmaster409]

The script must have had more go to's then asking for directions in New York!

Just to clarify, if anything Toady probably utilizes the most obscure good programming habits out there. Generally using the goto statement is universally frowned upon by the more adept groups of software programmers in the world. I lack the degree or understanding to honestly explain this cognitively, so there's some Wikipedia info on it here.


However, going back onto topic, I honestly think it IS fair to take two games and judge which is the overall more satisfying to play. With Dwarf Fortress and Minecraft in question, asking this anywhere else BUT the Dwarf Fortress forums will almost certainly favor Minecraft because it is easier to look at and understand what is going on. Those who can look past the ASCII/clunky tilesets however know that Dwarf Fortress is far more in-depth than Minecraft will probably ever be, and most dorfers will agrue that gameplay > graphics. Dwarf Fortress has plenty of gameplay, and so does Minecraft; and while Minecraft is almost on the same plane of gaming (gameplay over graphics) as Dwarf Fortress, it represents the 3D world in both games in real 3D.


Both games are good, but Dwarf Fortress is more replayable than Minecraft, possibly due to the vast amount of things that can ruin your shit in Dwarf Fortress whereas in Minecraft there aren't too many monsters.


EDIT: bluh this post is barely understandable please forgive me it's really late 

[Max White]

I lack the degree or understanding to honestly explain this cognitively

Basiacly it is because it makes the code harder to follow. These days script should be short sweet, and moddable.
Goto, Break and public <instance> are all a sin these days for this reason. Even if your int has a get and set method it should still be private, simple because later on somebody might have to modify the class file, and if the other files that referance to it use methods, you could just change the logic of a single class, rather then every class it relates to.

In essance, it is because your boss dosn't want to pay you to fix something you should have done in a better way before, we programmers made the mistake of doing things right that one time, and now were not getting fed pizza and coffie for fixing lines of spagetti code. 

EDIT: Although this applies more strongly to business OOP. For some other things, you can bend the rules a little more, but not by a huge amount. I know that prolog, a language I am very interested in, is physics defying in software terms. Iteration be dammed!

[Urist McDepravity]

The origenal DF was build in C (If I am correct, and these days its C++ right?) and therefor I admire him to no end of being able to build what is without question an OOP project without the paradime, truely a coding king! The script must have had more go to's then asking for directions in New York!

You probably should not hiss on C if you have no real experience with it. It can handle OOP just fine (better than Perl, for one), and I doubt Toady used even single goto statement. In hands of unexperienced (or, worse, too self-confident) programmer C++ is far worse than C.

[Max White]

You probably should not hiss on C if you have no real experience with it. It can handle OOP just fine (better than Perl, for one), and I doubt Toady used even single goto statement. In hands of unexperienced (or, worse, too self-confident) programmer C++ is far worse than C.

C is OOP? I was under the impression that C wasn't, and thus the reason C++ came into light. I work primarly in C++, java, and the new kid on the block C#, never realy put any effort into C, so I can only go off old legends of legacy systems.
The more you know...

[ChairmanPoo]

Anything done in minecraft I can do it better in photoshop. The game is for people with a lot of time on their hand and a lack of willpower to learn more sophisticated things. No depth whatsoever.

* rephikul dons his nether woods amour set.

I think it's more like Minecraft is for people who enjoyed Legos but no longer want to play with 'toys'.

I use Dwarf Fortress for that purpose.

[forsaken1111]

Anything done in minecraft I can do it better in photoshop. The game is for people with a lot of time on their hand and a lack of willpower to learn more sophisticated things. No depth whatsoever.

* rephikul dons his nether woods amour set.

I think it's more like Minecraft is for people who enjoyed Legos but no longer want to play with 'toys'.

I use Dwarf Fortress for that purpose.

Dwarf fortress is more like The Sims, but with more blood. Like a really advanced version of playing with dolls and action figures.

[Max White]

I liked playing with both action figures and lego!

Strangly I prefer lego to action figures, but I prefer DF to MC. Then again I prefer lego to MC. I'm going to go play with lego now...

[Encased in burning magma]

You probably should not hiss on C if you have no real experience with it. It can handle OOP just fine (better than Perl, for one), and I doubt Toady used even single goto statement. In hands of unexperienced (or, worse, too self-confident) programmer C++ is far worse than C.

C is OOP? I was under the impression that C wasn't, and thus the reason C++ came into light. I work primarly in C++, java, and the new kid on the block C#, never realy put any effort into C, so I can only go off old legends of legacy systems.
The more you know...

C is extremely powerful. However, using it as an OOP langage, is, well, most awkward. It works but is a pain in the ass to code.

[Max White]

C is extremely powerful. However, using it as an OOP langage, is, well, most awkward. It works but is a pain in the ass to code.

Well yea, something that old is bound to be nice and low level and powerful as port, but a bitch to handle. No garbage collection right? So semi-OOP, not fully supported, but basic elements if you try hard enough.
Like I said, making something like DF, a project I would deem OOP required, in a language that dosn't fully support it, is impressive. I wonder if Toady had to go so far as to build he's own basic compenents such as linked lists, or was that standard in C by now...

[Dakk]

Notch used an open source engine to build minecraft me thinks, he just improved it a slightly bit to add proceduraly generated terrain, me thinks, but don't quote me on that. This is why notch has like, what, 7 games made, from simulators to minecraft. Notch's thing is making simple, small games.

Toady built his own engine out of C and C++, which is pretty impressive on its own. Dwarf Fortress's source is a well guarded secret, and even then, Toady said if anything were to happen to him or make it impossible for him to keep doing DF, he'd pass on the source to the community. Hopefuly it'll never come to that.

[Max White]

You know you love a game when your last will and testiment includes a vision document and script to give to the public, in case the unthinkable should come.

[MrWiggles]

Well, I hope not too.

Cause it'd be like the at the end of Raiders of the Lost Arc.

[LoSboccacc]

You probably should not hiss on C if you have no real experience with it. It can handle OOP just fine (better than Perl, for one), and I doubt Toady used even single goto statement. In hands of unexperienced (or, worse, too self-confident) programmer C++ is far worse than C.

C is OOP? I was under the impression that C wasn't, and thus the reason C++ came into light. I work primarly in C++, java, and the new kid on the block C#, never realy put any effort into C, so I can only go off old legends of legacy systems.
The more you know...

[/quote]

I invented the term Object-Oriented, and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind.

OOP is a way of programming that disallow direct access to data structure, every change to a data structure should be performed by an aggregate of coupled methods, maintaining consistency and centralized access.

it's all about messaging.

and it could be done as easily in C than in java.

just put the structure definition in a private module, publish the structure operating method and enforce that the only methods that access a struct are in a well defined header, and whammo! you're ooping your way in C.

some languages have a predefined support for helping programmer with oop, but oop is just a way to 'divide and conquer' your program complexity