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[Kiktamo]

Regarding Veok's suggestion:

You could simply remove training weapons from the RAWs ... and remove the ability of your dwarves to make wooden weapons at all, in which case the material specs of wood wouldn't matter even in Dwarf mode (but *damn* do you have a sharp looking bed!).

I could do that, but I like to give my fortress guards wooden swords so the police brutality isn't quite so brutal. Again, it's a path I may go down, but it's not really ideal. Because of their increased speed, my modded elves with wooden spears still do a fair bit of damage (sometimes from punches, but I can cope with that), it's just the arrows that are useless, so I was hoping that there might be a more arrow-specific solution that was more limited in scope. I'm also fine with them having weak wooden armor that splits at the first axeblow - again, I'm using speed to make up for that.

Regarding Deon's suggestion:

I've made a custom materiall called "spellwood" which elves use which is like a mediocre metal by stats, and it ups their survivability a lot.

I looked for it in your Genesis mod - didn't find it. Is it not in there? I found Ironwood, but that was a real, biome-placed tree.

Regarding Kiktamo, and Askot's most recent:

I thought the same regarding reactions. Are we wrong?

From what I understand if a civ can create a material using custom reactions then the race will use that material during worldgen. I know it can be done with metals so there should be no reason it wouldn't work with wood.

[KhazâdAimênu]

You can also create a separate elven bow that uses elven arrows, lower the contact area and up velocity of the shot arrows in the ammo raw. Just don't go overboard, but you can chalk it up to elves having superior arrow technology and bowman skills - even though it's still wood.

That's exactly what I've been doing. The raw modifications I've been working with (not counting the spear arrows) are posted in the OP, if you want to take a look. That does bring up a point I want to ask, though - does smaller contact area mean more damage for [EDGE], [BLUNT], or both? My feeling was both, but I wanted to verify.

Regarding velocity - I've tried going overboard. I've put the max velocity on the bows up to 10000, same for the whip arrows - no result. They bounce off of armor just like the regular-speed ones did. The only thing I've found so far that works is [SIZE:600] or thereabouts, and it works on both the [EDGE] arrows and the [BLUNT] arrows.

[KhazâdAimênu]

From what I understand if a civ can create a material using custom reactions then the race will use that material during worldgen. I know it can be done with metals so there should be no reason it wouldn't work with wood.

Interesting. Perhaps I'll experiment with this. That still doesn't solve the problem of ensuring that they actually use it for their arrows, though - unless, as Askot wondered, they'll go for the best material they have available. Do they?

[KaelGotDwarves]

You can also create a separate elven bow that uses elven arrows, lower the contact area and up velocity of the shot arrows in the ammo raw. Just don't go overboard, but you can chalk it up to elves having superior arrow technology and bowman skills - even though it's still wood.

That's exactly what I've been doing. The raw modifications I've been working with (not counting the spear arrows) are posted in the OP, if you want to take a look. That does bring up a point I want to ask, though - does smaller contact area mean more damage for [EDGE], [BLUNT], or both? My feeling was both, but I wanted to verify.

Regarding velocity - I've tried going overboard. I've put the max velocity on the bows up to 10000, same for the whip arrows - no result. They bounce off of armor just like the regular-speed ones did. The only thing I've found so far that works is [SIZE:600] or thereabouts, and it works on both the [EDGE] arrows and the [BLUNT] arrows.

Smaller contact area for edge means more penetrative/stab abilities, but less likely to "cut" something larger off. So all the force goes into a smaller area = more likely to get through. Upping the size puts more of the material behind that strike, so at some point you're going beyond arrows and longbow arrows and into "Avatar" and mini-ballista catagories.

[KhazâdAimênu]

Smaller contact area for edge means more penetrative/stab abilities, but less likely to "cut" something larger off. So all the force goes into a smaller area = more likely to get through. Upping the size puts more of the material behind that strike, so at some point you're going beyond arrows and longbow arrows and into "Avatar" and mini-ballista catagories.

Thanks for the info on contact area. I've now determined that even contactarea=1 wooden arrows with very, very unreasonable velocity and penetration values from an unreasonable velocity and force bow still do nothing whatsoever against iron armor.

Yeah, it's been a conundrum so far. Unless I want to really make the damn elves into Navi, the size 600 arrows are just ridiculous. I'm still hoping I can make something work with the whip arrows that doesn't take the arrow beyond reasonable arrow size. If not, I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and make a special wood.

[Chromasphere]

You can also give the elves a [NATURAL_SKILL:RANGED_COMBAT:5] or whatever level you want in their creature file.  They will then all start at that level and never rust under it.  You see, in my mind, elves should have superior equipment in some things but also superior skill ala Tolkienish elves.  This way, if you combine some good equipment, but not too outrageous, with very good bow skills, you can have elves aiming for vulnerable areas rather than just trying to push through metal with wood.  In one ambush with some nasty Orcs, one Orc bowman shot an arrow at me.  I dodged, but my poor companion right behind me got the arrow right in the eye.  It was a fluke, but if a race were skilled enough.... {That can't be good = very good fun}

[KhazâdAimênu]

You can also give the elves a [NATURAL_SKILL:RANGED_COMBAT:5] or whatever level you want in their creature file.  They will then all start at that level and never rust under it.

Thanks! I had been hoping there was some way to force their skills like that, because that's very much in line with what I had in mind for the elves. I once had a high-skill marksdwarf put a wooden bolt through some unfortunate goblin's copper mail shirt, so I knew that skill probably affected whether wood ammo would work. I just figured I'd have to design my weapons around low-skill siegers, but if I don't, that makes life easier. Thanks again!

[Deon]

i don't think them having custom reactions would help much, i believe those reactions are only useful for fort mode, no?

Custom reactions provide whatever they make to the entity, so it will give them the material.

[veok]

i don't think them having custom reactions would help much, i believe those reactions are only useful for fort mode, no?

Custom reactions provide whatever they make to the entity, so it will give them the material.

But will they *prefer* it. That's what we're asking.

[Chromasphere]

You can also give the elves a [NATURAL_SKILL:RANGED_COMBAT:5] or whatever level you want in their creature file.  They will then all start at that level and never rust under it.

Thanks! I had been hoping there was some way to force their skills like that, because that's very much in line with what I had in mind for the elves. I once had a high-skill marksdwarf put a wooden bolt through some unfortunate goblin's copper mail shirt, so I knew that skill probably affected whether wood ammo would work. I just figured I'd have to design my weapons around low-skill siegers, but if I don't, that makes life easier. Thanks again!

Check out the 'skill token' list in the wiki for the combat tokens needed.  Besides the  RANGED_COMBAT  (which is for archery skill), you may also want to add a BOW skill as well.

[KhazâdAimênu]

Well, I've learned the interesting fact that even when I make arrows out of a modded wood with [SOLID_DENSITY:10000] (copper is 8000, for reference), not one out of 50 test arrows shot by a grand master archer/bow-elf left a dent on an ironclad dwarf. It has something to do with the material template for wood, because when I directed my modded wood to Deon's Ironwood template (which is largely copied from the metal template), arrows made of it murdered my dwarf just as well as or better than copper did.

And a brief test has just demonstrated that the relevant something in the material template is not [MAX_EDGE], because when I dropped it back down to the level of wood my arrows were just as murdery as they were with [MAX_EDGE] at 10000. Time for some more testing...

[Deon]

i don't think them having custom reactions would help much, i believe those reactions are only useful for fort mode, no?

Custom reactions provide whatever they make to the entity, so it will give them the material.

But will they *prefer* it. That's what we're asking.

In case of elves they will, because it will be better than wood. Bu really, it takes one second to set up, just check it (or my Sylvan elves).

Well, I've learned the interesting fact that even when I make arrows out of a modded wood with [SOLID_DENSITY:10000] (copper is 8000, for reference), not one out of 50 test arrows shot by a grand master archer/bow-elf left a dent on an ironclad dwarf. It has something to do with the material template for wood, because when I directed my modded wood to Deon's Ironwood template (which is largely copied from the metal template), arrows made of it murdered my dwarf just as well as or better than copper did.

And a brief test has just demonstrated that the relevant something in the material template is not [MAX_EDGE], because when I dropped it back down to the level of wood my arrows were just as murdery as they were with [MAX_EDGE] at 10000. Time for some more testing...

Various ***_YIELD parameters are the most important here.

[KhazâdAimênu]

Various ***_YIELD parameters are the most important here.

Thanks! I actually just found that out on my own after some testing (and actually reading from the beginning of the material template file...). It turns out that the [IMPACT] set of tags in the material template is really key to the blunt combat effectiveness of a material. Values below right around 16000 for yield seem to be entirely ineffective against iron armor. Values above it punch right through. So, it looks like I'll be taking the modded wood and elves-only reaction route...thanks for the info regarding preferences.

[Chromasphere]

 Hmmm, it just dawned on me that it probably doesn't matter what skill the elf has at archery and bows (when it comes to aiming for vulnerable areas on a target).  That's because, as far as I know, they can't.  Aiming with ranged weapons isn't in yet.  But when that day comes, you'll have deadly elves without having to resort to 'material' enhancements.  Sorry for getting your hopes up on that one.

[KhazâdAimênu]

Hmmm, it just dawned on me that it probably doesn't matter what skill the elf has at archery and bows (when it comes to aiming for vulnerable areas on a target).  That's because, as far as I know, they can't.  Aiming with ranged weapons isn't in yet.  But when that day comes, you'll have deadly elves without having to resort to 'material' enhancements.  Sorry for getting your hopes up on that one.

Yeah, I was sort of coming to that conclusion after a while of testing. I don't know what was going on with that marksdwarf I had. Anyway, I'm reasonably pleased with the results of blunt attack arrows made of wood with modded [IMPACT_YIELD] stats.

I'm now testing that elves-only modded wood reaction, but it's been more...interesting...than I expected. I genned a few worlds until I had one where the elves and a dwarven civ were at war, and tried to embark in a nice spot. My nice spot turned out to have coextensive third cavern and magma sea layers, so after a few minutes at an FPS of 4 and a bunch of cave-in notices I gave up and tried to embark somewhere else. It wouldn't even embark; the game just froze. So, I tried again. This time, it managed to embark, and things seemed reasonable at first glance...except for the three z-levels of adamantine sticking out of the ground a little south of the wagon, making the land around it pretty and green amidst the snow. It looks like the game tried to place an adamantine vein on top of a magma pipe, and failed at both. There are two other normal magma pipes on the map, plus one hole in the first cavern layer that looks like it should have been a magma pipe, but it's got an adamantine-vein-shaped cap of "Unknown Material" on top of the real adamantine vein, several z-levels of air on top of that, then the adamantine vein starts up again and heads up to the surface. It seems to provide a clear path all the way down to the HFS, so I'm not clear on why I didn't get that notice; the top of the vein looks kind of buggy, so it may not actually be as open as it looks. Anyway, my FPS is at 50, for no apparent reason, so I'm going to try to run this for a while and see if it bugs out on me...I only need to get it running until the first elf ambush anyway.