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[KhazâdAimênu]

My apologies if this topic has been done to death, but I've been searching for a couple of days now without finding much of use, especially for the newer versions of DF.

I've never liked how pathetic elves are in battle, so I'm trying to make them a bit more threatening to my fortresses. Increasing their speed and agility, making them [TRAPAVOID], that's all easy. However, none of that changes the fact that wooden weapons, as they are now, just don't stand a chance against metal armor, especially with the changes in 31.xx. I don't want to give up the idea of elves only using wood, so I want to find a way to give the elves wooden weapons (at least arrows) that can hurt an ironclad dwarf. I know in previous versions you could just give them much better damage, but as I understand it that doesn't work anymore.

I've already modded in greatly improved bows and arrows, but arena tests show them to be pretty much useless. I even tried to make a specialized arrow that replicates the way whips are overpowered, but that too just bounces off of the test dwarf's armor. I'm fairly new to modding, so is there something I'm missing? Or is wood just never going to be able to do what I want, no matter how overpowered I make the specific weapons? I know I could try making a new, metal-like wood, but that's a level of complication I'd like to avoid if possible. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Elven Bow:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_ELVEN_BOW]
[NAME:elven bow:elven bows]
[SIZE:350]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[RANGED:BOW:ARROW]
[SHOOT_FORCE:5000]
[SHOOT_MAXVEL:5000]
[TWO_HANDED:0]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:62500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:5]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:10000:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:1250]

Elven Arrows:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[ITEM_AMMO:ITEM_AMMO_ARROWS_ELVEN]
[NAME:elven arrow:elven arrows]
[CLASS:ARROW]
[SIZE:100]
[ATTACK:EDGE:2:10000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:2000]

"Whip" Arrows:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[ITEM_AMMO:ITEM_AMMO_ARROWS_ELVEN_DATOME]
[NAME:elven datome arrow:elven datome arrows]
[CLASS:ARROW]
[SIZE:350]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:1:1000:strike:strikes:NO_SUB:5000]

[Askot Bokbondeler]

perhaps messing with the material raws for wood and having them replicate those of some metals you could make the sissies dangerous sissies...

you better not be using this to play "elven retreat" 

[KhazâdAimênu]

perhaps messing with the material raws for wood and having them replicate those of some metals you could make the sissies dangerous sissies...

I've considered this, but it opens up a whole world of complications. I don't want wood to become a metal alternative for everyone - just elves. Is there some way I can do that?

you better not be using this to play "elven retreat" 

No danger of that - I play DF to build massive fortresses, not ponce around protecting trees. This mod wouldn't be of much use to me unless I planned on antagonizing the elves mercilessly.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

the other civs would still use metals, only elves can make armor and weapons out of wood

[KhazâdAimênu]

the other civs would still use metals, only elves can make armor and weapons out of wood

True - but it would make wooden training weapons and trap components more dangerous as well, though, yes? Well, if it's the only way to get what I want I may do it, I would just really prefer a solution with a better flavor explanation. Wood weapons should be useless against metal armor; I only want it to be a result of magical elven tree-stroking and river-fondling that they can make their wooden weapons dangerous. Ah well - thanks for the suggestion, anyway. Unless anyone knows of other ways, I may do that.

[veok]

Maybe not -- training weapons are actually different items than their weaponized counterparts. You could simply remove training weapons from the RAWs (maybe? Not sure if they create any dependencies) and remove the ability of your dwarves to make wooden weapons at all, in which case the material specs of wood wouldn't matter even in Dwarf mode (but *damn* do you have a sharp looking bed!).

As I've seen on these forums -- What's the difference between an "Oaken Training Spear" and a "Oaken Spear"? A danger room full of corpses.

[Deon]

I've made a custom materiall called "spellwood" which elves use which is like a mediocre metal by stats, and it ups their survivability a lot.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

but they use it without access to it on their home biome? i suppose they also use the rest of the woods, or do they go after the best wood the same way the other civs use the best available metal?

[KhazâdAimênu]

Went to post the question Astok just asked, found he already asked it.

[Kiktamo]

You could make a tree that doesn't have a biome and give elves reactions that allow them to make the wood of said tree with metal like properties.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

i don't think them having custom reactions would help much, i believe those reactions are only useful for fort mode, no?

[KhazâdAimênu]

Regarding Veok's suggestion:

You could simply remove training weapons from the RAWs ... and remove the ability of your dwarves to make wooden weapons at all, in which case the material specs of wood wouldn't matter even in Dwarf mode (but *damn* do you have a sharp looking bed!).

I could do that, but I like to give my fortress guards wooden swords so the police brutality isn't quite so brutal. Again, it's a path I may go down, but it's not really ideal. Because of their increased speed, my modded elves with wooden spears still do a fair bit of damage (sometimes from punches, but I can cope with that), it's just the arrows that are useless, so I was hoping that there might be a more arrow-specific solution that was more limited in scope. I'm also fine with them having weak wooden armor that splits at the first axeblow - again, I'm using speed to make up for that.

Regarding Deon's suggestion:

I've made a custom materiall called "spellwood" which elves use which is like a mediocre metal by stats, and it ups their survivability a lot.

I looked for it in your Genesis mod - didn't find it. Is it not in there? I found Ironwood, but that was a real, biome-placed tree.

Regarding Kiktamo, and Askot's most recent:

I thought the same regarding reactions. Are we wrong?

[KaelGotDwarves]

This was from my armory mod idea. Add this to weapon raws, then add them into the entity default. The numbers still need work, but you get the idea- add a different set of elven weapons/armor and then boost their stats- particularly upping velocity and decreasing contact area for stabs and increasing penetration. They're still made of wood, so it's not like the boosted stats ever end up being broken. It just makes elven weapons magically stabby at least compared to normal weapons, which I believe suits their nature.

Elven variations near bottom.

The nice thing about this is that you can make dwarven-made weapons slightly superior to their human counterparts too, other than materials used.

Code: [Select]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_AXE_BATTLE_DWARVEN]
[ADJECTIVE:Dwarven]
[NAME:battle axe:battle axes]
[SIZE:700]
[SKILL:AXE]
[TWO_HANDED:47500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:42500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]
[ATTACK:EDGE:40000:6000:hack:hacks:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:40000:6000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_HAMMER_WAR_DWARVEN]
[ADJECTIVE:Dwarven]
[NAME:war hammer:war hammers]
[SIZE:500]
[SKILL:HAMMER]
[TWO_HANDED:37500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:32500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:10:200:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:2000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_SHORT_DWARVEN]
[ADJECTIVE:Dwarven]
[NAME:short sword:short swords]
[SIZE:250]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[TWO_HANDED:37500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:32500]
[CAN_STONE]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:20000:4000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50:2000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:20000:4000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SPEAR_DWARVEN]
[ADJECTIVE:Dwarven]
[NAME:spear:spears]
[SIZE:300]
[SKILL:SPEAR]
[TWO_HANDED:47500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:5000] amphibian men, etc., need variants
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:20:10000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:10000:6000:bash:bashes:shaft:1250]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_MACE_DWARVEN]
[ADJECTIVE:Dwarven]
[NAME:mace:maces]
[SIZE:700]
[SKILL:MACE]
[TWO_HANDED:37500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:32500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:20:200:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:2000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_CROSSBOW_DWARVEN]
[ADJECTIVE:Dwarven]
[NAME:crossbow:crossbows]
[SIZE:300]
[SKILL:HAMMER]
[RANGED:CROSSBOW:BOLT]
[SHOOT_FORCE:1000]
[SHOOT_MAXVEL:1000]  This is just to make sure a near-weightless object doesn't go faster than the string could possibly go.
[TWO_HANDED:0]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:15000]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:10000:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:1250]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_PICK_DWARVEN]
[ADJECTIVE:Dwarven]
[NAME:pick:picks]
[SIZE:400]
[SKILL:MINING]
[TWO_HANDED:47500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:42500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]
[ATTACK:EDGE:100:4000:strike:strikes:NO_SUB:2000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_SHORT_ELVEN]
[ADJECTIVE:Elven]
[NAME:short sword:short swords]
[SIZE:250]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[TWO_HANDED:37500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:32500]
[CAN_STONE]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:20000:4000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:2500]
[ATTACK:EDGE:25:2000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:2000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:20000:4000:slap:slaps:flat:2500]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:2000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SPEAR_ELVEN]
[ADJECTIVE:Elven]
[NAME:spear:spears]
[SIZE:300]
[SKILL:SPEAR]
[TWO_HANDED:47500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:5000] amphibian men, etc., need variants
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:10:20000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:2500]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:10000:6000:bash:bashes:shaft:2500]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_LONG_ELVEN]
[ADJECTIVE:Elven]
[NAME:long sword:long swords]
[SIZE:500]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[TWO_HANDED:57500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:52500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]
[ATTACK:EDGE:60000:6000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:2500]
[ATTACK:EDGE:25:3000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:2000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:60000:6000:slap:slaps:flat:2500]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:2000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_MACE_ELVEN]
[ADJECTIVE:Elven]
[NAME:war club:war clubs]
[SIZE:700]
[SKILL:MACE]
[TWO_HANDED:37500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:32500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:30:200:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:5000]

[KhazâdAimênu]

Thanks, Kael - I'm probably going to do something similar with the spears, and possibly add a staff weapon or something similar for melee blunt damage. I'm probably going to remove wooden swords from the elf arsenal, since they just don't make any sense.

On the arrow front, I've determined that by making arrows unreasonably large, larger than spears, my competent arena bow-elves can kill my ironclad arena dwarf, even with wooden arrows. Now that I know it's possible to do this with wood, let's see if I can find a more reasonable solution...

[KaelGotDwarves]

You can also create a separate elven bow that uses elven arrows, lower the contact area and up velocity of the shot arrows in the ammo raw. Just don't go overboard, but you can chalk it up to elves having superior arrow technology and bowman skills - even though it's still wood.