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[rephikul]

Well, on my third attempt I've managed to keep for alive long enough for reinforcements to come, they had to put down most of the surviving starting seven due to tantrums and madness though. From this point, it becomes quite beatable, however, I confess, I had to nuke some gabbro men and ogres to save myself cleaning the cavern from crundle-drunian-dwarven corpse mix.

I have one advice related to happiness: decorations. I manage to drag on with just pain rock statues. Here's my no drinking allowed fort as a proof.

1. It'd be nice if you add reactions to mill/brew specific plant.

I've been making do with burrows, but this is a great suggestion considering almost every underground plants can be milled.

2. Since mining is now low efficient I'd suggest transforming metal veins into large clusters. It's really annoying to have to dig half a map in order to find some ore to make 10 breastplates. Real veins provide more than that.

I always feel there's something epic in the grand scheme of things when a dozen miner dwarves push deeper and deeper into the mountain with three dozen peons running back and forth carrying out whatever valuable to the 4 smelters at the base of a magma pipe which, in turn, fuel the operation of a single forge. Difference in view, I guess

3. Troll would be more appropriate name for Ogres, you know, like trollface. They attack civilians or lone soldiers and run away from your military, easily outrunning them(!).

I believe they have aggressive thief A.I., not sure if it's vanilla or my "wrongdoings". At least they dont carry rabies like monkeys or ambush like (giant) leopards. Meanwhile your military reevaluate chase route too infrequently and (probably) wear heavy armors and thus have always trouble chasing anything. I advise to add some crossbow dwarves for suppression fire. Even if you use crap ammo and never hit, all the tumbling and dodging seem to take time, slowing the target down and allow your men to catch up.

4. 5 mandates for militia commander is too much. It's not like he has an army counting many thousands warriors. He simply leads a ragtag gang of useless for everything else morons. And these morons are needed much earlier (leader squad is not enough) than outpost could provide those demands. (especially considering that 'create chain leggins 3/3' mandate would consume half of the vein). Probably, less demanding noble could be replaced when fortress becomes big enough to require an army.

In my current fort I happen to create a broker/doctor who like cotton (not the black one, the cyan variety!!). I just suck it up and build some chains. All the mandating positions in the mod are chosen by the player so I believe it is fair.

[Di]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

2. Since mining is now low efficient I'd suggest transforming metal veins into large clusters. It's really annoying to have to dig half a map in order to find some ore to make 10 breastplates. Real veins provide more than that.

I always feel there's something epic in the grand scheme of things when a dozen miner dwarves push deeper and deeper into the mountain with three dozen peons running back and forth carrying out whatever valuable to the 4 smelters at the base of a magma pipe which, in turn, fuel the operation of a single forge. Difference in view, I guess

Right now, one hauler per miner and two smelters are more than enough to outperform your mining operation. You see, with all your tweaks you managed to get to the starting point: 30-40 dwarves can perform all the work in a fort of any size, it's just that now there isn't much to do: even stone is rare enough to not allow steady flow of jobs.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

4. 5 mandates for militia commander is too much. It's not like he has an army counting many thousands warriors. He simply leads a ragtag gang of useless for everything else morons. And these morons are needed much earlier (leader squad is not enough) than outpost could provide those demands. (especially considering that 'create chain leggins 3/3' mandate would consume half of the vein). Probably, less demanding noble could be replaced when fortress becomes big enough to require an army.

In my current fort I happen to create a broker/doctor who like cotton (not the black one, the cyan variety!!). I just suck it up and build some chains. All the mandating positions in the mod are chosen by the player so I believe it is fair.
[/quote]
Everything goes at a price, yes. But this one is ridiculous, with such rate of mandates you'll get half of your fortress in jail. I have to go without chief medic and manager, but soldiers are really needed.

[rephikul]

Right now, one hauler per miner and two smelters are more than enough to outperform your mining operation. You see, with all your tweaks you managed to get to the starting point: 30-40 dwarves can perform all the work in a fort of any size, it's just that now there isn't much to do: even stone is rare enough to not allow steady flow of jobs.

It's well intended that dwarves's advantage is the resource-limited metal industry while elves are good at sustaining. Still, dwarves can produce leather, cloth and glass products of low quality ad infinitum if you have spare hands.

Everything goes at a price, yes. But this one is ridiculous, with such rate of mandates you'll get half of your fortress in jail. I have to go without chief medic and manager, but soldiers are really needed.

Very well I shall test this. The next fort shall be a never-listen-to-production-mandate-unless-we-do-them-anyway challenge. On a side note, the elves have no noble problems

[rephikul]

This is mostly directed at Di, but the idea is open. Di has previously stated his concern with the large amount of digging involved in this mod. Well, time is dwarf buck and dwarf buck is too easy to come by. That's why there're lots of dig, to slow things down. So I thought what if, a big IF, the actual issue isnt the digging themselves but the way digging is implemented. As with everything else; if it's not painful it'd be much less of a problem. Just like how cancer patients wont try to kill themselves if they are sufficiently supplied with painkillers. Right now, as a side effect of the digging, players have to constantly designate new digging area, think of ways to use the resulting space and some might even go insane due to agoraphobia. So I've thought of a way to seperate the digging with all of the side effect: digging "workshop". Actually I didnt think of it, I borrowed the idea from the regeneration mod.

Here's the idea: The player can build these "mining shaft", produce "mining kits" and use them to try and get resource from these shafts. The rate of production from a mining shaft will be slightly slower then digging itself and technically come at a total dwarf buck loss, but can be set to repeat and wont destroy the scenery.

1 mining kit consist of a pick, a bone helm, a cloak, a pair of trousers, a pairs of mittens, a pairs of high boots and a bag to pack them all. Mining kits have a 10% chance to be destroyed during work.
Each operation in mining shafts also require a wooden log to extra construct supporting arcs.

Spoiler: "Excavation data" (click to show/hide)

[Vherid]

Hmm, there's a lot of things that I'm looking at in the features that make this look awesome, but then there's also quite a few things that deter me from wanting to use it. Wish there was kind of like an xcom util type of installer where you could just install everything or if you wanted to go through each feature, and do yes/no.

[rephikul]

Hmm, there's a lot of things that I'm looking at in the features that make this look awesome, but then there's also quite a few things that deter me from wanting to use it. Wish there was kind of like an xcom util type of installer where you could just install everything or if you wanted to go through each feature, and do yes/no.

unfortunately that's too much work involved because most of the features involve large sweeping changes over the same dataset. That mean they easily mix up with each other and take lots of time to maintain. Right now I have 5 versions for different graphic sets plus racial settings and it's already a mess to handle.

If there's something you dont like, kindly list them here with some description and I'd see if I can do something about them.

[Di]

Right now, as a side effect of the digging, players have to constantly designate new digging area, think of ways to use the resulting space and some might even go insane due to agoraphobia.

Have you played games like warcraft or age of empires? If you aren't pushy during skirmish sometimes game lasts so long that you'll get a map completely devoid of any resources and any means to develop. This looks weird considering how few creatures were required to exhaust those. And even more anticlimactic if we talk about minerals in planet crust.  In some games there are workarounds for such situations and so do DF but those are preposterous at best.
My concerns were more about dwarves having troubles with advantaging from the resource-limited metal industry and the situation above. But nevermind, I guess my concerns arose because I play one-cavern world supposedly requiring 5-10 years to deplete ore supply while standard map would last decades.

The player can build these "mining shaft".
Each operation in mining shafts also require a wooden log to extra construct supporting arcs.

I'm offended by it's name: since there aren't different planes yet I feel uneasy knowing that such operation should leave hole and it does if performed outside of such workshop.
And thats a lot of wood, player will be forced to cut entire forest to get a dozen of unmatched bars. And I'd better face my agoraphobia rather than disturb my agrizoophobia (induced by your animals) by sending woodcutters farther than 10 tiles from entrance
However, some workshop to produce stone would be nice addition (preferably not requiring wood). As well as one for metal ores (possibly even consuming logs  ). For example while I was constructing this rough text wall, I got these ideas:
1. Demonic altar which consumes some specific and somewhat abundant stone (the vile microline  and produces lots of normal stone. But: a) chances of success and reagent consumption are low to ensure constant unholy rituals; b) it has a chance to produce dangerous cloud to which the only one caste is immune.
2. Planar mine shaft (this way it doesn't hurt my feelings  where miners go with a full mining kit (and maybe even with some weapons added to it) in search for more precious resources like ores and gems. Probably should have several reactions for different types of ores. Opening a portal could require a barrel of blood, it's something to import and something that trades bring a lot, unlike stuff you've requested form them (like yeast stone, though I hadn't actually had problems with that yet, because I've failed to get that much of barrels and plants to use up those I've embarked with). Could some clouds occasionally as well. For kicks, make sure it requires cabinet to be built.
Mix and shake to your liking.

[Vherid]

unfortunately that's too much work involved because most of the features involve large sweeping changes over the same dataset. That mean they easily mix up with each other and take lots of time to maintain. Right now I have 5 versions for different graphic sets plus racial settings and it's already a mess to handle.

If there's something you dont like, kindly list them here with some description and I'd see if I can do something about them.

That'll take me a while to re-go through the features and do that again haha, i'll maybe get around to that later or such.

[rephikul]

My concerns were more about dwarves having troubles with advantaging from the resource-limited metal industry and the situation above. But nevermind, I guess my concerns arose because I play one-cavern world supposedly requiring 5-10 years to deplete ore supply while standard map would last decades.

Tell me about it. I always play 1 cavern embarks with 22-25 layers including HFS (FPS!!). With the current embark setting, dwarves'd have great issues finding IE or flux bearing sedimentary so I'd have to adjust some of the parameters slightly but it should still focus on an eventual shift to mining siegers for metal.

The player can build these "mining shaft".
Each operation in mining shafts also require a wooden log to extra construct supporting arcs.

I'm offended by it's name: since there aren't different planes yet I feel uneasy knowing that such operation should leave hole and it does if performed outside of such workshop.

You'd be delighted to learn that the current test build involve only the kitchen and the reactions acitivities are "Prepare for the journey!!" and "Brave the kitchen sink!!". On a side note, I made a small raw error so it first didnt check for any mining kits. When the first kitchen was constructed, a plumber automatically and dramatically dived then came up with a piece of coal. I laughed heartily.

And thats a lot of wood, player will be forced to cut entire forest to get a dozen of unmatched bars. And I'd better face my agoraphobia rather than disturb my agrizoophobia (induced by your animals) by sending woodcutters farther than 10 tiles from entrance

You are always quick at spotting my gimmicks. You should spare some for other to figure out themselves

However, some workshop to produce stone would be nice addition (preferably not requiring wood).

There're already glass industry and obsidian casting. Obsidian can be fabricated into stones of other colour if you dont like dark grey. Speak of colouring, I've been polling to know which stones to spawn more often from the mining activity here.

Demonic altar which consumes some specific and somewhat abundant stone (the vile microline  and produces lots of normal stone. But: a) chances of success and reagent consumption are low to ensure constant unholy rituals; b) it has a chance to produce dangerous cloud to which the only one caste is immune.

Well that's kinda like what I've been doing with the kitchen sink... As on the dangerous clouds, they never work with temperature:off for now so I dont want to include it in my mod. On the other hand, saccing useless stones hardly carry any sorts of risk so I refrain from doing so. I think I'd add blood to the list of things could be ultilized though.

[Vherid]

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=98196.0
I really like the direction that mod is going, both of you have some of the same game fixes and ideas, but I don't feel any drawbacks with his.

Going down your list of features on the OP lets see,

I like how you implemented your elves, and even though its a temporary fix, It irks me to make them herbivores, as I like to envision the elfs in this game to actually be dark extremist forest cultists. Not sure I really agree with them not being able to make their armor/weaponry on site either unless it's a game limitation.

I love everything you added in the more dangerous life tab, though not sure I agree with the dwarves being lazier or slower.
Your equipment overhaul is nice, economy overhaul is nice.

I like your removal of sheriff and captain, and just giving that stuff to exp leader, though I don't like the idea of dwarves hating nobles in general. I'm not sure what you mean by this section as well:
+ 1 mandate nobles: military captains & champions
+ 3 mandate nobles:  Chief medic & broker
+ 5 mandate nobles: Military leader

I don't agree with your skill nerfs.

I like your metal overhauls except for your adamantine overhaul.

I like your training overhaul.

The altar is pretty interesting.

In your streamlined system tab, the top two features are nice, not sure I like the removal of all the things in the less is more however. I agree with tallow and pig iron being removed however. Love the color stone thing.

Don't really agree with the removal of miasma either, as personally for me I don't have FPS issues.

There's things I was looking at for your .25 added features as well like removing the .25 such and so on that I wasn't to fond with that also aren't on the OP features list.

I understand you're trying to make the game harder, and crippling a lot of features to do that does make sense, but there's certain things I would rather keep even if they keep the game easy, as this mod just had a lot of interesting little funs things that interested me and not so much the harder difficulty and FPS savers.

I don't want you to like go through my suggestions and make a butchered version as that wouldn't be fair, I guess the mod overall just isn't what I'm really looking for, the MDF mod is more what I'm looking for. However maybe you could make integrate-able shell packages of certain features to just shove in any other game, such as the altar only, or the color block workshop only, etc. But that wouldn't really work either because I love entire chunks like your creature changes lol.

[rephikul]

I like how you implemented your elves, and even though its a temporary fix, It irks me to make them herbivores, as I like to envision the elfs in this game to actually be dark extremist forest cultists. Not sure I really agree with them not being able to make their armor/weaponry on site either unless it's a game limitation.

They couldnt make their wooden armour/weapons (except bows). They can still make leather and clothes gears. Guess I'd clarify that bit. I have yet to add custom reactions for them because:
+ They already have natural high combat skill.
+ They can still make bows, allowing them to wipe the floor with absolutely everything short of megabeasts. Their wooden arrows wont scale against megabeasts, forcing them to scavenge/trade for metal equipments for late game fun. Their wooden melee weapons are also crap comparing to whatever they can pick up on the battlefield, making them early purchases only.
+ Due to the changes made in armor layering, elven players have 2 actual options: trade for wooden armour or stack many many leather/cloth armor. Since wooden armors are not very effective to begin with and cannot be masterwork, in the end it would be kinda the same.

I like your removal of sheriff and captain, and just giving that stuff to exp leader, though I don't like the idea of dwarves hating nobles in general. I'm not sure what you mean by this section as well:
+ 1 mandate nobles: military captains & champions
+ 3 mandate nobles:  Chief medic & broker
+ 5 mandate nobles: Military leader

That mean those nobles give that many mandates. Other useless forks (such as barons or kings) arent going to bother you. In fact, due to this change, the players are to be faced with many more mandates then in vanilla. However all of these positions are elected by the player so s/he practically can choose what kind of mandate sets s/he wish to face and plan accordingly. More difficult yes, but not unreasonable.

The noble hating thingie is to force the player to create more happy thought-generating things for the fort accordingly with the growth of nobles. The lazy/hotheaded feature consist of many small tweaks with their personality. It's to make the player paying more attention to their preferences and to be careful about pissing his people off. Although to speak the truth I've never noticed a difference. Maybe they take breaks more often but nothing major

I like your metal overhauls except for your adamantine overhaul.

It's to prevent the common adamantine rush by people with dfreveal. And so to make other metal more viable.

There's things I was looking at for your .25 added features as well like removing the .25 such and so on that I wasn't to fond with that also aren't on the OP features list.

Ah right I should mention that although it's not exactly features... It's more like "I'm not sure how to deal with these things and they dont seem to be of any tatical uses so let's not include them yet"

I understand you're trying to make the game harder, and crippling a lot of features to do that does make sense, but there's certain things I would rather keep even if they keep the game easy, as this mod just had a lot of interesting little funs things that interested me and not so much the harder difficulty and FPS savers.

I don't want you to like go through my suggestions and make a butchered version as that wouldn't be fair, I guess the mod overall just isn't what I'm really looking for, the MDF mod is more what I'm looking for. However maybe you could make integrate-able shell packages of certain features to just shove in any other game, such as the altar only, or the color block workshop only, etc. But that wouldn't really work either because I love entire chunks like your creature changes lol.

Unfortunately the custom reactions you like need to be injected into the entity files for the race to recognize them so I cannot make shell packages for them even if I want to yet but I's keep that in mind.

[Nabobalis]

Good to see you back! I shall be playing this when I get back to my main PC. Thanks for the update!

[Ashnal]

I love the concepts of simplification I see in this mod. I wish I could somehow combine the concepts from genesis I love with the concepts here to make a combination.

[Hugo_The_Dwarf]

You take the "mineshaft" idea from my Mod but not the "quarry"

But I think if you are trying (if you are using it) to no require logs everytime or at least have a %80-%90 chance of giving back the log, and or make a reaction to make say, ten posts/beams from one log. and every use takes a post/beam plus the breakable mining kit. I'm acaully going to add a dig for ore option to my mineshaft, because sometimes I just pick the crappiest of embarks.

So for those against the Mineshaft idea - don't use it lol

For those that do - prepare to use alot of other reasources to get what you need

And as for the playable races, it seems our mods have went differently as I went with Humans instead of Elves (they where on the list as playable civ but now im not so sure if I want them playable)

PS:
You didn't even post a link to my Mod lol

[rephikul]

You take the "mineshaft" idea from my Mod but not the "quarry"

But I think if you are trying (if you are using it) to no require logs everytime or at least have a %80-%90 chance of giving back the log, and or make a reaction to make say, ten posts/beams from one log. and every use takes a post/beam plus the breakable mining kit. I'm acaully going to add a dig for ore option to my mineshaft, because sometimes I just pick the crappiest of embarks.

So for those against the Mineshaft idea - don't use it lol

For those that do - prepare to use alot of other reasources to get what you need

And as for the playable races, it seems our mods have went differently as I went with Humans instead of Elves (they where on the list as playable civ but now im not so sure if I want them playable)

PS:
You didn't even post a link to my Mod lol

Well a reaction for a low chance to get a lot of random stuff went ways back, I remember first seeing it in genesis and I personally have tried some at the altar. So no it's not so much as new concept from you ;P Not to mention that right now I dont even have a mining shaft:

And the log reagent definitely will stay. I'd adjust the value and chance of things but it's the definite want-something-nice?-risk-your-life-for-it hook of this feature.