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Author Topic: 31.18 Combat Research  (Read 14933 times)

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Re: 31.18 Weapon Research
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2010, 04:44:50 pm »

Some elf: I play Kung fu master, in attack mode!
Urist McDwarf: You've triggered my trap lever!

I place the goblin prisoner in a face-down position!
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Double A

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Re: 31.18 Weapon Research
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2010, 10:26:53 pm »

What about silver blunt weapons? Are they still the best, or did Toady make them behave correctly?
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Shinziril

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Re: 31.18 Weapon Research
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2010, 11:55:39 pm »

Unarmored peasant w/ steel war hammer vs unarmored peasant w/ silver war hammer (test ran twice to reduce data scatter):
98 group 1 survivors
102 group 2 survivors

I'd say they're pretty even for unarmored combat. 

Full iron armor peasant w/ steel war hammer vs full iron armor peasant w/ silver war hammer (test ran twice):
83 group 1 survivors
117 group 2 survivors

Silver seems slightly better against armor.  Sigh.  At least it's not a huge advantage; blunt weapons are nasty against armor no matter what you make them out of, really, as long as it's not really light (like wood or adamantine or something). 
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why is Dwarven science always on fire?
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Ranzear

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Re: 31.18 Weapon Research
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2010, 04:19:52 am »

Silver seems slightly better against armor.  Sigh.  At least it's not a huge advantage; blunt weapons are nasty against armor no matter what you make them out of, really, as long as it's not really light (like wood or adamantine or something).
Just for clarity on if this is density at work, try Slade against Steel.
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Adamfostas

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Re: 31.18 Weapon Research
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2010, 06:35:45 am »

Very interesting - it explains why Goblin Thieves have been so effectively stabbing my steel-armoured troops to death. As a point of interest, are scourges/whips still like leather lightsabers?
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Shinziril

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Re: 31.18 Weapon Research
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2010, 11:13:32 am »

Peasant w/ full iron armor and steel war hammer vs peasant w/ full iron armor and platinum war hammer (test ran twice):
69 group 1 survivors
131 group 2 survivors

Density definitely has an effect, but it's not huge (platinum is something like twice the density of silver and only made the hammers slightly better).  Also, slade now seems to be unavailable in the testing arena, although I suppose I could just mod something to have similar stats. 

Peasant w/ iron scourge vs peasant w/ iron battleaxe (test ran twice):
106 group 1 survivors
94 group 2 survivors

Scourges are about even with battle axes for unarmored combat, but if you give them armor scourges will penetrate while battle axes won't, resulting in a 100% victory for the scourges.  Note that scourges are edged weapons, so they're like knife-flails or something (and they're made out of metal, not leather, resulting in many flying body parts). 

Peasant w/ full iron armor and iron scourge vs peasant w/ full iron armor and iron whip:
33 group 1 survivors
67 group 2 survivors

Whips are blunt weapons, so they're better for armored combat than scourges.  They can't sever, but they are very, very good at chipping bones, which tends to cause extreme pain and thus allows for instant kills when enemies pass out from the pain. 

Peasant w/ iron scourge vs peasant w/ iron whip (test ran twice):
111 group 1 survivors
89 group 2 survivors

This follows the general rule that edged > blunt for unarmored combat, and blunt > edged for armored combat. 
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why is Dwarven science always on fire?
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Adamfostas

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Re: 31.18 Weapon Research
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2010, 11:19:15 am »

I think I'll continue killing Lashers with a crossbow, then. Seems there's still some odd problems around the material system; someone with a leather whip beating someone in full plate seems a little odd...
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Shinziril

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Re: 31.18 Weapon Research
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2010, 01:53:29 pm »

Another note: Wrestling is near useless when operated by the AI, as it tends to grab random body parts and release them (although if you grab the right body part it'll go for joint locks and suchlike).  Operated by a human player, wrestling is vastly more powerful; since the AI cannot currently pick up weapons from the ground, wrestling someone's weapon away from them renders them nearly harmless (although not entirely- watch out for them punching you in the finger, breaking it and causing you to pass out from the pain and get your skull caved in).  The combination of high Wrestling skill and Ambusher is even more deadly; if you can get next to someone without them spotting you, you can choke their throat and knock them unconscious in seconds, often without being spotted.  They can then be summarily dispatched with a convenient weapon.  I call this the "Solid Snake" style of adventurer mode combat.  The fact that wrestling trains insanely fast doesn't hurt, either. 
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why is Dwarven science always on fire?
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JoRo

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Re: 31.18 Weapon Research
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2010, 05:47:28 pm »

I think I'll continue killing Lashers with a crossbow, then. Seems there's still some odd problems around the material system; someone with a leather whip beating someone in full plate seems a little odd...

Ah, but they aren't using a leather whip.  They are using a whip composed entirely of metal.

Whips in DF have quite a few problems.
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Encased in burning magma

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Re: 31.18 Weapon Research
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2010, 06:02:33 pm »

I think I'll continue killing Lashers with a crossbow, then. Seems there's still some odd problems around the material system; someone with a leather whip beating someone in full plate seems a little odd...

Ah, but they aren't using a leather whip.  They are using a whip composed entirely of metal.

Whips in DF have quite a few problems.

Could be worse. Think... lightwhip! Chainwhip (they... they exists. Chainwhips in the warhammer sense, then)!
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Ranzear

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Re: 31.18 Weapon Research
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2010, 06:07:45 pm »

Thats roughly the same finding I came to. The AI is dumb as rocks when wrestling, so disarming just about anything without a natural attack makes them almost harmless. It makes combat a bit more complex than 'move into their square', but aimed attacks did the same for weapon combat.

With enough strength, if it can be strangled it can be killed in three or four actions. Grab, strangle, (strangle), Curb Stomp. Kicking seems to have more 'strength' behind it, and tends to bust skulls rather handily even on conscious targets.

So now my best run is a Human Wrestler who carries only a shield and keeps the other hand free. Most humanoids are grabbed, strangled, and headkicked in as many turns, while ringleaders and other 'skilled' opponents get their weapons taken away and thrown at their buddies and are then grabbed, strangled, and headkicked.

Another request. Give equal bashing and blocking skill to equally geared opponents, except one opponent has only a single shield and the other has a shield in each hand. I sorta want to know if dual-wielding shields and making a biter would be worthwhile (it would certainly be Dwarven!)
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Bricks

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Re: 31.18 Weapon Research
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2010, 07:29:58 pm »

You may want to standardize your test subjects by going into the raws and setting all of their statistics to moderate levels, with no variation.  Things like agility advantages will only add error to your results.  (Statistical error, that is).  It would also be nice to know how much an intrinsically high agility affects combat.
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KaelGotDwarves

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Re: 31.18 Weapon Research
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2010, 07:35:41 pm »

DF whips are based on Indian urumi, AFAIK.

Also, combat disarm/stangle/knock unconscious/teeth to throat/tear = WIN every time. Throat shots can not be blocked by armor or anything when you have full opportunity strikes, even when their armor would deflect all other attacks.

Hummingbird

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Re: 31.18 Weapon Research
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2010, 06:21:30 am »

DF whips are based on Indian urumi, AFAIK.

Holy fucking shit. Thanks for posting this. I feel so much more excited about playing a Lasher now.
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Max White

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Re: 31.18 Weapon Research
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2010, 06:28:47 am »

*Goes into raws*
*Renames 'whips' to 'urumi'*
*Changes turbans from uncommon to common in human entity*

Now I can sleep easy.
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