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[Urist McCheeseMaker]

Hmm. I was just thinking about cults in adventure mode. Having huge evil temples for you to ransack or infiltrate (just get some dark robes in the right colour and hum along with the chants), summoning Cthul'hu, maybe even joining one and furthering their agenda with your near-godlike skills.. And seeing their plans come to fruition. This could add so much!

[Lord Vetinari]

And you'd rather them be reduced to a simple thought ala like the Ceaser games? The reason why most people generally make them more viable beings is that because religion as a whole is rather boring without its mythological aspects. Reducing them to classical private prayer/thoughts generally makes it a simple easily accessible thought to do. Since pleasing a god is harder then pleasing a dwarf generally, and people like boons and things that are useful, or can be made FUN!

Of course gods could be init toggable, whether they make actual appearances and/or allow blessings of the like. aka. Religion Mythology On or Off. Off would turn off the mythological portions of it, and make it as real religion.

Indeed. The only thing interesting about real life religion is the opportunity to hold an intelligent argument about it. In games, that's not quite the focus.

No, real life religions are powerfull social forces and political lobbies. It's a fact, even if I don't like it, being an atheist. But it can become an interesting gameplay element and one that's not been abused, yet.

Look at what religion did (or has been used as an excuse to do) in history. Look at what it's doing (same as before) now.
And you're telling me that that's less interesting that the usual "[random god n°08561168] is pleased, so he gives you plenty of [random influence sphere n°48613486]"? Dwarf Fortress can be better than this.

[Rowanas]

True. But the actions of religions in real life are not so different to the actions of kingdoms. I think having them both do the same thing in a game is unnecessary. Tell me where the difference lies between the crusades of the church and the Norman conquest of England, or between the Vandal immigration and the Jewish exodus.

There's not enough difference between the religious and the imperial if there's no actual intervention.

[Urist McCheeseMaker]

I do remember one game that used religion as a lobby group of sorts. Well, emphasis on "of sorts". There were certain technologies that made life easier for your people, but some intergalactic religion police would command you to stop researching that or they'd bring down righteous fire upon you. Can't say I've ever had to worry about that though, since I built shields over all my research buildings.

[Lord Vetinari]

True. But the actions of religions in real life are not so different to the actions of kingdoms. I think having them both do the same thing in a game is unnecessary. Tell me where the difference lies between the crusades of the church and the Norman conquest of England, or between the Vandal immigration and the Jewish exodus.

There's not enough difference between the religious and the imperial if there's no actual intervention.

On a large scale, yes. But on local scale? What about the impact on everyday life? Religion acts on a deeper level than politics.

A god is as hard to satisfy as the greed of his high priest, which can be elected between the lower level priests like the mayor. The same way, the mood of the high priest is the mood of the god.
The impact on the life of a dwarf depends on the strenght of the faith of the dwarf himslef, so a casual worshipper will have less benefits but also less negative effects form the supposed mood of the god. It's better to have your, say, engraver, to be a dedicated worshipper, so that when his church is happy he thinks that he has his god on his side and makes a larger number or masterpieces, or maybe even artifacts without a mood (but can also make a lot of crap, even lower than what you may expect from his level when he thinks that the god is unhappy), or it's better to have a casual worshipper, which won't ever have so many high creativity moments but whose average quality will be more costant and predictable?
Dedicated worshippers in key positions means also more power to the churches.

You're preparing for a siege? You'll need to please the priest of the church related to the local god of war, maybe with some new sacramental for the temple, otherwise a bad omen from the oracle may frighten your pious legendary axedwaf and lower his combat ability. On the contrary, if the priest is pleased, everythig works as normal. No divine interventation that wipes out the siege as soon as it shows on the map.

And when you made the sacramental for one priest, the priest of a rival cult becomes envious and wants more for himslef, so you'll need to perpetually alter the balance depending on what the fort needs at the moment (and IMHO something to do to the player after the fort is running other than megaproject is really needed) and try to please one without angering too much the others. Highly religious followers of a neglected cult may become upset and cause much more fun than any angry god.

Let's say that the elected high priest of FlyingSpaghettiMonster likes phillite: it may become a new sacred material, at the point that Urist McExtremistWorshipper may be upset if phillite is used to make the altar of another church. A couple of years later the new high priest hates phillite, so he mandates the substitution of all the phillite ornaments you made for the previous one.
Another high priest says thet oak is an unholy material, Urist McExtremistWorshipper's fine oak bed makes him unhappy, now. It may be time to send the high priest to the Career Advancement Lever(c), but what if you end up with a slade loving one next? What if the worshippers become upset if too many of their religious chiefs "become united with the rock" too early?

You don't fulfill a mandate of the high priest and the related community becomes less productive because they think that the god is unsatisfied so they spend more time worshipping. The situation goes on for too much time and they may even go on strike.

Religious satisfaction is also an important thing. The church is pleased but the cult accessibility for the masses is low, so new secret cults can sneak in the fort, causing social tension: the high priests may ask justice in form of a hammerer to those eretics.

RL religions actively altered even the structure of the cities and the use of the land (the agorai in early greek towns, for example, or the forests that usually surrounds a shinto temple; medieval european towns shifting their center from the roman forum to the square in front of the main church, being rebuild along the centuries from the original roman grid layout to a radial pattern from the cathedral, etc.).

These are just rough ideas, but there's a lot that we can work on if we look at the social part of the topic, more than we can ever get from a "god is happy to make miracles for you" approach.

[Rowanas]

I don't see how this is different from having the gods themselves do the acts. To show how similar they seem, here's the salient points of your post, altered for gods instead of priests.

The impact on the life of a dwarf depends on the strength of the faith the dwarf himself, so a casual worshipper will have less benefits but also less negative effects form the mood of the god. It's better to have your, say, engravers, to be a dedicated worshipper, so that when his god is happy he has his god on his side and makes a larger number or masterpieces (but can also make a lot of crap when the god is unhappy), or it's better to have a casual worshipper, which won't ever have so many masterpiece but whose average quality will be more costant and predictable?
Dedicated worshippers in key positions means also more power to the god.

You're preparing for a siege? You'll need to please the local god of war, maybe with some new sacrament for the temple, otherwise this god might curse the pious legendary axedwarf and lower his combat ability. On the contrary, if the god is pleased, everything works as normal. No divine intervention that wipes out the siege as soon as it shows on the map.

And when you made the sacrament for one god, the god of a rival cult becomes envious and wants more for himself, so you'll need to perpetually alter the balance depending on what the fort needs at the moment (and IMHO something to do to the player after the fort is running other than megaproject is really needed) and try to please one without angering too much the others. Highly religious followers of a neglected cult may become upset and tantrum like normal.

Let's say that the FlyingSpaghettiMonster likes phillite: it may become a new sacred material, at the point FlyingSpaghettiMonster may be upset if phillite is used to make the altar of another church. A couple of years later there's a surge of worship for RaptorJesus, so he mandates the substitution of all the phillite ornaments you made for the previous one to change it into his temple.

You don't fulfill a mandate of the god and the related community becomes less productive because the god maligns them. The situation goes on for too much time and they may even burst into flame.

Religious satisfaction is also an important thing. The god is pleased but their spheres of influence are regarded as unimportant, so a new god can take a place in the fort, causing deific rivalry: the old gods may demand the sacrifice of the heretics.

[Lord Vetinari]

I don't see how this is different from having the gods themselves do the acts. To show how similar they seem, here's the salient points of your post, altered for gods instead of priests.

No, because when your, say, stonecraft god decides that all will make masterpieces for the next month, it'll be masterpiece mont no matter what. No additional choices on your side. And I can't help but feel that the thing between FlyingSpaghettiMonster and RaptorJesus is a little bit forced. Why should a god want a temple of another god instead of asking to make a better and larger one for himself?

Religious satisfaction is also an important thing. The god is pleased but their spheres of influence are regarded as unimportant, so a new god can take a place in the fort, causing deific rivalry: the old gods may demand the sacrifice of the heretics.

This is not the same thing. An unimportant sphere of influence is unimportant since the beginning, so why the cult should come to the fort in the first place? If the cult has few worshippers, it has no political power, so there should be no witch hunt against a more powerfull cult as well.

Also, a miracle is a miracle. How can the strenght of one's fait alter the effect of the miracle if we assume that the gods are phisical beings with actual power? Even if we say that the power of a god depends on the power of the faith of his followers, like what we see in many fantasy stories, when the god makes the miracle it means that he has been worshipped enough to grant him the power to do what he wants.

[Soralin]

And when you made the sacramental for one priest, the priest of a rival cult becomes envious and wants more for himslef, so you'll need to perpetually alter the balance depending on what the fort needs at the moment (and IMHO something to do to the player after the fort is running other than megaproject is really needed) and try to please one without angering too much the others. Highly religious followers of a neglected cult may become upset and cause much more fun than any angry god.

Or, you know, you just kill off everyone with an inconvenient or different religion, if we're going by how real life religions have done things.   I'm betting that would become a common option here as well.  You could do that with actual gods as well, but they'll probably be a bit harder to kill. (but not impossible)

No, because when your, say, stonecraft god decides that all will make masterpieces for the next month, it'll be masterpiece mont no matter what. No additional choices on your side.  And I can't help but feel that the thing between FlyingSpaghettiMonster and RaptorJesus is a little bit forced. Why should a god want a temple of another god instead of asking to make a better and larger one for himself?

What makes you assume that stonecraft god has the power to do that, or the desire to?  And if it can make masterpieces itself, why have your dwarves make them?  What does the god get out of it, that's worth their expenditure of power?  And that could always be tweaked for balance and such.  And with the gods actually existing, and being in the world and physical entities, I'd expect that they may act in more physical ways.  I.E. why would a god of stone crafting, which seems itself a strongly physical thing, work in a more mystical indirect way of affecting how well other people craft stone, instead of just walking over to a boulder or a wall, and carving out a masterpiece for you directly?   Perhaps a statue of itself for it's temple, especially if power comes from worship, or if it's just a rather vain or egocentric god.  Gods should be people too, with their own personalities, and everything that goes along with that

And why wouldn't a god want the temple and perhaps followers of another god?  They'd want it for the same reason they want it for themselves, I'd guess, whatever the reason for that is in the first place.

I think the right question to ask is, what do gods need?  What do they want?  If they don't want or need anything, then there's no point in them ever doing anything, or dwarves ever doing anything for them, and that isn't very interesting.  And of course, if they have the power to do anything they want, then they don't need anything, so it's not very interesting to have gods that are absurdly overpowered.

This is not the same thing. An unimportant sphere of influence is unimportant since the beginning, so why the cult should come to the fort in the first place?

Regarded as unimportant doesn't necessarily mean it's always unimportant, and something that is important in one situation may not be so in another.  A god that's primarily interested in warfare may not be very useful in times of peace, and a god that;s focused on weather may not be very useful when you live underground, etc.  And people in real life follow gods that don't do anything at all, I'd imagine there would be people in dwarf fortress that follow gods that are simply less useful as well, for their own personal reasons.

And there would be benefits to following(hmm, supporting? following might not fit if they're not actually in a position of leadership, believing doesn't really fit, since it's obvious the god exists, and just because you believe it exists, doesn't mean you support it) a less powerful god, I mean, if your village is practically the only group that supports them, then they could always be around, and help out in small ways.  A more powerful god, with the power to influence and assist, or lead, nations, probably won't take as much interest in doing as much for just a small village.

Also, a miracle is a miracle. How can the strenght of one's fait alter the effect of the miracle if we assume that the gods are phisical beings with actual power? Even if we say that the power of a god depends on the power of the faith of his followers, like what we see in many fantasy stories, when the god makes the miracle it means that he has been worshipped enough to grant him the power to do what he wants.

That's always one way to go about it, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodsNeedPrayerBadly  http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ClapYourHandsIfYouBelieve  And it does provide a motavation for gods to actually do things.

As for having the power to do what they want, just because a god can do x, doesn't mean that they can do y.  Heck, just because a god can do x, doesn't mean that they can do 2x (2x being bigger, or more often, or etc.).

[KoffeeKup]

I think that what we are looking for here is how prominent are the deities in this game, and is that a variable that could change from world gen to world gen?

So could the game be something akin to people seeing miracles as every day occurrences (healing the sick, rain falling from the sky to fill pools, divine intervention, etc) or are the Gods just almost non existent?

Also, are the Gods apart of a pantheon, much like the Greek gods, or does each god have a different view of how the world should be, so a more monotheistic approach where each god is separate?

I think that the first question could be solved by adding a slider to world gen. On end of the spectrum is a world with none or little influence from the deity/deities that created it. The world in a sense is "forsaken". The gods that formed it have forgotten the world and do not care fore its inhabitants any more. Worship produces no results and many answers are just coincidence.

On the other hand, the Gods could be actively involved in the worlds affairs. Halting famines and droughts after sacrifices and religious demands are met or out of pure unconditional love. Fire could rain upon foes or pestilence could rip through civilizations full of sin (or purity, if the gods in question happen to be of evil intent). Are there prophets and chosen people that speak the divine word of the gods, and if so, what do they prophesy and how do people react

Also how powerful are the gods? Can one only control a specific sphere or are some just better than others? Will they act with vengeance if denied or is there like a three strike rule?   

This then raise the question of religious organization. Are there priests and priestess? How does one remain devout? Is there a holy day? Holy rites that must be preformed? Can warriors gain Holy status and become Paladin's. Paragons, and Berserkers? Can people gain small temporary bonuses to speed, protection, and strength?

Also, are there items Holy to a religion? Artifacts and relics that must be protected? Books and scrolls, tablets and other writings describing holy events and divine truth from the mouth of the creator himself? Swords and shields infused with divine radiance that force foes to cower at there brilliance? Axes of such greatness they can fell titans, but only if the wilder is worthy?

Anyway, I'm kinda throwing out everything i can think of. I think a slider involving divine influence would be a step in the right direction. Temples and alters are a must, and may not be vital but may be a great boon to your fortress and a bane to enemies.  Controlling things like how many temples are needed and if dwarves need them to worship is important too. I feel that things like religious rivalries should be kept to a strict minimum in dwarf fortress mode but let loose in adventure mode. I sure as hell don't need 35 dwarves having an ethnic cleansing during the middle of a siege, fun as it may be, it gets in the way of the game mechanics
Anyone want to add to or comment on what i got? I do realize that there could be many facets to these things as this topic is extremely in depth.

[ZebioLizard2]

This is almost just like the magic issue..Namely that we have no bloody clue how Toady's gonna implement it in any fashion.

[Rowanas]

This is almost just like the magic issue..Namely that we have no bloody clue how Toady's gonna implement it in any fashion.

Give this lizard a medallion!

[aepurniet]

religion like this should kick in after the economy. dwarves starving and struggling to survive would not have too much time to devote to worship.  but this could definitely spice up the mid to late game.  the original suggestion would be relatively easy to implement given it only affects current gameplay avenues.   we will wait and see how it ultimately makes it into the game. the fact that it will make it into the game is almost a given at this point.

[KoffeeKup]

This is almost just like the magic issue..Namely that we have no bloody clue how Toady's gonna implement it in any fashion.

I completely agree. The two are quite intertwined and I think that there could be much more important matters than figuring out this religion thing. I still feel that due to the diversity of peoples opinions on how much magic/divinity there should be in a game I feel that most people would agree that a slider at world gen for both magic and religious power present in the world is a step in the right direction.

I know that lots of people like the idea of priests and religious factions destroying other dwarves and demanding larger and more expensive temples but I think that that distracts from the point of dwarf fortress. If your local religion is interfering with production and the flow of the game then there is something wrong with the mechanics. I think that it should be much more of a player choice if they want a 200x500 square foot temple to the god of love and devotion rather then some Urist McHolyzelot ass hole demanding that you build a temple or you will be beset by giant eagles. Some demands may be made but there shouldn't be terrible negative effects, even though some citizens may regard some misfortune as divine punishment it may not be true.

I just think if you show devotion to a deity then they will help you if they want to and if they find your servitude acceptable. So lets say I build a temple to Dan the god of gems and jewels. I make a nice room, add a jewel encrusted alter, engrave the walls, add some gem windows and appoint a few clergydwarfs. Dan is pleased, the game tells me so, and the worshipers of Dan receive happy thoughts. The game could track my fortresses relationship with Dan and much like a dwarfs happiness he can become more and more pleased with my devotion. As my devotion increases the clergydwarfs will announce the will of Dan and tell me what he needs constructed/done(i.e. more converts, more gems in temple, a Large specific gems to be blessed, etc)  before he can bestow more religious power to my fortress. I can then ask favors of Dan if they are with in his power and of his will (My dwarves gain bonuses when mining gems, cutting them, all gemed weapons become higher value, a get a possessed dwarf).

Because of this it may be a good idea at the beginning of a game to ignore religion or only make small 3x4 chapels with an alter and worry about large temples and such later.

[Deimos56]

I'm not sure how to pull it off myself, but I can say that a lot of the ideas thrown around in this thread could be combined. We'd just need to figure out how to do it in a way that makes players happy while simultaneously meshing with the (infinite) world(s) of Dwarf Fortress.

[KoffeeKup]

I'm not sure how to pull it off myself, but I can say that a lot of the ideas thrown around in this thread could be combined. We'd just need to figure out how to do it in a way that makes players happy while simultaneously meshing with the (infinite) world(s) of Dwarf Fortress.

I would really like at least a way to control divinity at world gen. Its no fun if every game all deities are moderately powerful and such. Each world has a different set of gods and goddesses of varying power. All the gods must have goals, wants and needs. The dwarves all must have wants needs and goals. Thus a devotion to a god is a mutual relationship. Dwarves enact there gods will in there gods place, and the god returns the favor. It could be very fun to try to please a deity to gain favor. Maybe you could have a Ark of the Covenant type thing that curses your enemies and melts the faces of those who look into its holy light?