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[Leafsnail]

Why are we all assuming the Garden of Eden story is to be taken literally?  Maybe it's an allegory for something more complex than the early Hebrews could grasp.  Maybe it's a fable or myth that got brought into the Official Canon by early Christian scholars who assumed it was to be taken as fact (Which is how we got the idea that you'll burn forever if you don't worship God).

An allegory for what?  The moral message seems rather... uh... "Blindly follow commands and try to stay ignorant".

[ed boy]

Or it could be about how you should trust in the judgement of others and recognize that there are things about which you know very little.

[Cthulhu]

Pretty much.  The meaning isn't as much "Blindly follow orders" as it is "God knows more than you, so don't be so quick to assume He's only making rules to dick around with you."  That was basically what the serpent told Eve, that God was just holding her back.  The serpent exploited her ignorance of why God didn't let them eat the fruit (Because mankind couldn't, and to a large extent still can't, handle the responsibility of being the smartest race on the planet), so humans would get kicked out of Eden, because the serpent was a dick.

[Leafsnail]

Pretty much.  The meaning isn't as much "Blindly follow orders" as it is "God knows more than you, so don't be so quick to assume He's only making rules to dick around with you."  That was basically what the serpent told Eve, that God was just holding her back.  The serpent exploited her ignorance of why God didn't let them eat the fruit (Because mankind couldn't, and to a large extent still can't, handle the responsibility of being the smartest race on the planet), so humans would get kicked out of Eden, because the serpent was a dick.

But... how was she supposed to know to trust God and not the serpent?  From her perspective, they were exactly the same...

[Cthulhu]

Pretty much.  The meaning isn't as much "Blindly follow orders" as it is "God knows more than you, so don't be so quick to assume He's only making rules to dick around with you."  That was basically what the serpent told Eve, that God was just holding her back.  The serpent exploited her ignorance of why God didn't let them eat the fruit (Because mankind couldn't, and to a large extent still can't, handle the responsibility of being the smartest race on the planet), so humans would get kicked out of Eden, because the serpent was a dick.

But... how was she supposed to know to trust God and not the serpent?  From her perspective, they were exactly the same...

It doesn't matter how she was supposed to know because in all likelihood she isn't real and the point of the story is the message.  The message there is to trust God because He knows best.  Others (The snake) will come along purporting to know better than God.  Don't trust them.

[Eagleon]

I'm pretty sure that Lucifer and the Fall thing doesn't have anything to do with Christianity. I blame John Milton for that, just like Dante is to blame for the modern conception of hell.

In Job God and Satan seem to have more of a friendly rivalry going on than any kind of war.

Spoiler: Prosespam (click to show/hide)

"O, then, at last relent! Is there no place 
Left for repentence, none for pardon left?           
None left but by submission; and that word 
Disdain forbids me, and my dread of shame 
Among the Spirits beneath, whom I seduced 
With other promises and other vaunts 
Than to submit, boasting I could subdue           
The Omnipotent. Aye me! they little know 
How dearly I abide that boast so vain, 
Under what torments inwardly I groan. 
While they adore me on the throne of Hell, 
With diadem and sceptre high advanced,           
The lower still I fall, only supreme 
In misery: such joy ambition finds! 
But say I could repent, and could obtain, 
By act of grace, my former state; how soon 
Would highth recal high thoughts, how soon unsay           
What feigned submission swore! Ease would recant 
Vows made in pain, as violent and void 
(For never can true reconcilement grow 
Where wounds of deadly hate have pierced so deep) 
Which would but lead me to a worse relapse             
And heavier fall: so should I purchase dear 
Short intermission, bought with double smart. 
This knows my Punisher; therefore as far 
From granting he, as I from begging, peace. 
All hope excluded thus, behold, instead             
Of us, outcast, exiled, his new delight, 
Mankind, created, and for him this World! 
So farewell hope, and, with hope, farewell fear, 
Farewell remorse! All good to me is lost; 
Evil, be thou my Good: by thee at least             
Divided empire with Heaven’s King I hold, 
By thee, and more than half perhaps will reign; 
As Man ere long, and this new World, shall know." 

I love Milton, but I'm not even remotely Christian. Is that weird? I never got how most Christians can take up the version he portrays and make him into anything but an antihero - he's the ultimate rebel without a cause, a perfect image of mankind's (to me righteous) automatic questioning of all authority, no matter how benevolent. Brilliant and self-mocking, suffering for his opinion but persistent in having it, because that's exactly how he was designed. He has no other option. It illuminates the dilemma of why he was created in the first place quite nicely.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I can't stand the "Man Shouldn't Play God" attitude. Not because it implies we should live in a New Dark Age of technological stasis. Not because it's an attitude taken from the re-written texts of barbarian lunatics who's word is still considered how to live one's life. Not even because it's used as an assumed one-shot against any kind of progress, and once someone's said it it's your "moral duty" or whatever to stop.

I hate it because other people use it to try and impose the above upon everyone. To force everyone to act like you because you can't stand the idea that any other way of life should exist. That's why I'm (mostly, the tax-free thing annoys me) fine with the Amish. They want to live in technological stasis, and they keep to themselves while doing so. I think it's sad that they so willingly suffer by ignoring the modern world, but that's on them alone, and isn't being forced upon anyone else. But not this. "Don't Play God" is used as an excuse to hold everyone back, and in my eyes that is one of the most horrid things you can do.

EDIT:

"And the LORD spake unto Urist, saying 'Build thee an ark of bauxite, and place two of every kind of animal within. Except cats. Take unto thee but one cat, lest doom befall you all. Truely I say unto thee, although boats work not, thou wilt really want to be in that ark when the Lever of the Covenant is pulled.'"

So very sigged.

[Leafsnail]

I can see how that's useful for keeping ancient nomadic people under the control of the priests, but... for today?

[Cthulhu]

On the original subject, I've never been a fan of the "Don't play in God's domain" argument when it's used to fight progress.  I don't think it's caused by religion though.  I think it's the natural human fear of the unknown finding an outlet via religion.  People are afraid of the future because they don't understand it, and they're using religion to try to hold the future back.

Where does Man's domain stop and God's domain begin?  Genetics?  We've been doing genetic engineering for centuries and we probably wouldn't have been able to sustain 6 billion people without it.  Like I said in the first paragraph, "God's domain" is whatever is just over the horizon and scares you, and I think putting words in God's mouth is more likely to piss Him off than fooling around with the fundaments of life.  Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and all.

[Soadreqm]

Pretty much.  The meaning isn't as much "Blindly follow orders" as it is "God knows more than you, so don't be so quick to assume He's only making rules to dick around with you."  That was basically what the serpent told Eve, that God was just holding her back.  The serpent exploited her ignorance of why God didn't let them eat the fruit (Because mankind couldn't, and to a large extent still can't, handle the responsibility of being the smartest race on the planet), so humans would get kicked out of Eden, because the serpent was a dick.

I think "serpents are assholes" is a seriously proposed interpretation, too. Wasn't there at least one saint whose great achievement was killing loads and loads of snakes?

Also, the Jehovah's witnesses that keep showing up at my door every now and then have thus far failed to convince me that eating the fruit actually WAS a bad thing. Sure, humanity got in God's bad books and got exiled from paradise, but apparently we got some kind of divine knowledge out of the deal. I'd say divine knowledge is worth having to farm to survive.

Cthulhu, I agree. "We must not meddle in God's domain" sounds a lot more like using God as an excuse than a serious theological argument. If God really disapproves of the issue de jour, why did He make it so easy?

[Leafsnail]

Yeah, I'd agree... it's just an excuse, and not really linked to religion.  Doesn't make it any less annoying an argument, though.

[Willfor]

I agree that man should be able to advance to godlike potential. I am living in the late 19th century and believe that there is absolutely no long-term downsides to the amount of coal being burned around me to maintain my lifestyle as a proper and forward-thinking individual. The whale oil I use to light my house comes from a population that will never run out. Mankind's understanding of the universe isn't entirely complete, but we have a good idea of what we're getting into with all of these advances. We've looked ahead to all the possibilities we can see, and there's absolutely nothing that can go wrong.

Even those pesky Christians are coming around to the ideas of the infallibility of progress.

Going into the 20th Century will bring us a bright future with no wars, and brighter prospects for all.

[Realmfighter]

What are we supposed to look forward to if not the future?

[Agdune]

Bible camp? They have LANs sometimes. I'd look forward to LANs.

Y'know, on having the garden of Eden story put up here again, I realised that, were I to believe it to be true, I would have to conclude god was either a fucking idiot or a total cunt who wanted everyone to suffer. The point of not yet eating that lovely apple (or a banana, as Stephen Fry pointed out may be the case) was because humanity was not ready for the burden of knowledge, right? So once Eve was tricked into eating it due to her lack of having knowledge enough to know better, he kicked them out into the real world and pretty much stopped talking to them.

Yeah, so now that humanity has knowledge but no ability to use it correctly, the obvious thing to do is to throw them out into a world of suffering and mortality without doing anything to help them use their new found smarts correctly (the bible came a bit late for this purpose, didn't it?). Yes, god was pissed, but acting like a negligent, abusive parent is not a responsible course of action. Thanks old testament god! Your overly-controlling, overly-irrational, 'throw out the kids as soon as they break a rule' parenting style is totally not at all to blame for the fuck ups you created.

Of course, this falls apart a little if humans were never meant to possess knowledge, but only a little. God should be able to think on his feet and do what's going to lead to the least harm to all of his creation, not just get pissy and throw a tantrum, leaving the naive little humans all open to making constant mistakes that he then writes them off for. Also, saying 'it's all part of his big plan' doesn't quite cut it either - he makes a strong impression that his plans keep getting fucked up and he actually didn't want his pets running around on their own, making their own choices. New testament god seems a little different, but is still a lazy and irresponsible god for someone who purports to be the embodiment of goodness. If he said "I'm good and evil at the same time, I'm everything at once and all is part of my desire!" then I'd think it was a bit more sensible. Like Lord of the Rings! Then you can justify everything.

'course, that'd mean a totally non-interventionist god, because they're playing both sides of the game at once and intervening would only thwart their own efforts, but that's why there are sub-deities who represent only one side - Lucifer and Michael. Symmetrical, all-encompassing and elegant. Thank you Tolkien for making a religious structure which works! Now to get it implemented and tear up that illogical old crap...

[Cthulhu]

I agree that man should be able to advance to godlike potential. I am living in the late 19th century and believe that there is absolutely no long-term downsides to the amount of coal being burned around me to maintain my lifestyle as a proper and forward-thinking individual. The whale oil I use to light my house comes from a population that will never run out. Mankind's understanding of the universe isn't entirely complete, but we have a good idea of what we're getting into with all of these advances. We've looked ahead to all the possibilities we can see, and there's absolutely nothing that can go wrong.

Even those pesky Christians are coming around to the ideas of the infallibility of progress.

Going into the 20th Century will bring us a bright future with no wars, and brighter prospects for all.

That's a good point, and it makes me glad I used "Don't play in God's domain" instead of "Don't play God."  Man doesn't have the luxury of being omniscient, and must be careful and conservative about what he does.  "Don't play God" is a valid statement.  In more secular terms, "You don't know everything, so don't act like you do."

"Don't meddle in God's domain" isn't valid, for the reasons I said above.