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[Jopax]

The king of camping still remains though, with no indication of him biting the dirt.

Fucking Komarin.

[Habbadax]

I am ready for El Halluf to get a proper rework or just get removed entirely

I am so sick of that goddamn hill it hurts

[Erkki]

But I do probably see the game from a slightly different POV as I have never touched SPGs or TDs or even heavies too much... When I click that battle button I want to play the game and not watch the reload timer, or sit in a bush watching birds. 

Although sometimes its called for to hold a defensive position in a TD, "Sitting in a bush watching birds" is not an effective Play style in my opinion.

Agreed, but its still much easier to achieve something while being passive or camping(= often inexperienced, incapable or just good old plain stupid players, people who dont want to risk dying early) in a TD than in something else. Sadly there are still maps where a single camping TD can win against even 3-5 enemies because they wont see it and theres only one path to it. Goddamn alley maps. The game could do with more large, balanced maps that have the whole map useable and not with large areas covered by a mountain like in Hidden Village or a Field of Death of Malinovka.

I kind of enjoyed the old Redshire as long as I was in something quick. That map used to really reward active gameplay and taking the initiative as there was some more cover on it. A tank with fire support behind it(=the whole camping "team") could really pin the enemy down and outplay them. I'm not sure if its better now... Some players just camp further back or in the stupid NW corner. 

Komarin remains easily the worst map though. I'd rather have the old Port map that they removed an update or 2 ago.

[Rex_Nex]

Alley maps can be sort of fun, but there's a fine line between an alley and a funnel. Lots of options in where you go (see Windstorm city) make for fun terrain in mediums and heavies. Kharkov, the map coming in 9.1, seems be sort of like this. The alley density is not quite as extreme as Windstorm, but it's a gigantic 1000x1000 map filled with mostly streets and alleys. Bit of open ground in the north for those that can't effectively play in the city.

The best maps have a bit of everything for everyone. Those maps that say "oh you're a (insert class)? fuck you." need to git out.

[Sonlirain]

Those maps that say "oh you're a (insert class)? fuck you." need to git out.

Himmelsdorf *cough* for lights and SPGs *cough*.

[Rex_Nex]

Yeah, light tanks have it badly on that map... but light tanks have it badly on a lot of maps. Its a problem with the class - the kind of terrain they need to be successful is pretty limited, so its hard for WG to make maps with them in mind.

SPGs dont count, if every map was as bad as Himmels for SPGs I'd be a happy tanker

[Sonlirain]

I think i'd rather be a light tank on himmels than a SPG. The spots where you cna use your range are scarce since the buildings are indestructable and tall.
This leaves me with only TD mode and since SPG reload is soo freakishly long it's only one shot at most that will hopefully kill whatever you were targetting.

I guess SPGs with a high arc will have it a bit better but damn.

[darkrider2]

SPGs dont count, if every map was as bad as Himmels for SPGs I'd be a happy tanker

I play SPGs and I don't understand the disdain others have for them. I get that dying to something you can't see sucks, but tank destroyers are far bigger offenders in that department.

I played USSR SPGs until I hit the Su-122A, but I hate the damn thing, it has a very low arc and horrible accuracy, and the SPG after it has the same exact guns with slightly improved ROF and 0.01 improved accuracy. Once I picked up german artillery I was instantly enjoying myself, with noticeably higher arcs and high damage even in the lower tiers, I can see why some of the best artillery players I've seen have been driving german SPGs.

Here's my advice for USSR SPGs: the tech tree is lying to you, the USSR SPG line actually starts at the KV-2.

[Flying Dice]

Here's my advice for USSR SPGs: the tech tree is lying to you, the USSR SPG line actually starts at the KV-2.

This, so much. Not only is the S-51 a fun, challenging piece to play, but the KV-2 is possibly the most fun I've ever had with a grind.

Also, re: SPGs on Himmels: I tend to just putter over to the trainyard or in line with the road below the cliff.

[Rex_Nex]

I've got a ton of opinions on arty and why they're very, very bad for the game... but in my experience going off on that tangent just gets people upset, definitely not something worth going into on bay12! I just don't like em is all.

Yeah, the KV-2 is definitely the best way to get into arty. The low splash/low damage/bad accuracy arty pieces are pretty lame, so many of the low tier SPGs are quite bad. Glad to see the german arty is a bit better for you. I went up that line myself when I was somewhat new to the game and eventually nabbed the GW Type E. Was a good SPG, but soon after I noticed that every SPG was really boring and samey and sold all of them.

Seems like a common story for new players - realize you suck at the game, notice that SPGs work okay even if you suck, go up SPG lines, get bored. That's why I wish SPGs were a bit harder to play and a lot more fun. New players wouldn't feel so inclined to go up those lines, but those that do wouldn't find it so boring.

[Sonlirain]

Personally i rarely ever get hit by SPGs and i don't really give a damn about them.
Yeah sure i get hit and/or killed by SPGs once every 20 games or so but i never did i got angry at SPGs... unlessi  drove one ad cursed at the  horrible innacuracy and the fact shells connect like 1 in 5 times.

[Flying Dice]

Again, the S-51 is a good example of what I think the ideal arty should be: it's got a fuckoff-huge cannon that can easily one-shot T6 tanks and kill others with the splash, massive range, a decent maximum vertical angle of elevation... and it has a tiny traverse arc, painfully long aimtime, mediocre accuracy when fully aimed in, and nearly a minute-long reload. It's only useful against people who sit in the same exposed spot for 20-30 seconds, or 60-100s if you're reloading, and against idiots that drive straight at you.

That said, I can barely stand playing even it or my Hummel, which is probably one of the best arty pieces at the moment.

[darkrider2]

Drove one and cursed at the horrible inaccuracy and the fact that shells connect like 1 in 5 times.

One time I saw my shell land outside of the aiming circle, I just threw up my hands and gave up.

That's why I wish SPGs were a bit harder to play and a lot more fun. New players wouldn't feel so inclined to go up those lines, but those that do wouldn't find it so boring.

Honestly yeah, I do to. Most of the skill involved is just knowing the maps and all the best places to sit where you get good firing lines on popular enemy positions. Probably also the reason you see FV304's running around, those things look FUN.

Again, the S-51 is a good example of what I think the ideal arty should be: it's got a fuckoff-huge cannon that can easily one-shot T6 tanks and kill others with the splash, massive range, a decent maximum vertical angle of elevation... and it has a tiny traverse arc, painfully long aimtime, mediocre accuracy when fully aimed in, and nearly a minute-long reload. It's only useful against people who sit in the same exposed spot for 20-30 seconds, or 60-100s if you're reloading, and against idiots that drive straight at you.

This, so much. Damnit dice you've convinced me to repurchase the KV-1 and research the KV-2.

[Rex_Nex]

Again, the S-51 is a good example of what I think the ideal arty should be: it's got a fuckoff-huge cannon that can easily one-shot T6 tanks and kill others with the splash, massive range, a decent maximum vertical angle of elevation... and it has a tiny traverse arc, painfully long aimtime, mediocre accuracy when fully aimed in, and nearly a minute-long reload. It's only useful against people who sit in the same exposed spot for 20-30 seconds, or 60-100s if you're reloading, and against idiots that drive straight at you.

That said, I can barely stand playing even it or my Hummel, which is probably one of the best arty pieces at the moment.

On the other hand, you can also just get a lucky hit in and oneshot some poor T9 who never deserved it. I think the S-51 is the opposite of ideal - that much alpha is far too much. It's true that it mostly hurts those who sit around long enough for it to aim, but as long as the accuracy mechanics are the way they are, firing a half-aimed S-51 is far more accurate than it ever should be.

It used to be worse, I guess. Getting your T10 1-shot by it while it was a T6 arty was just infuriating.

[Ant]

Big nerfs on arty in the heyday have really been a considerable factor considering the TD campiness. I haven't really seen reason to revise my opinion. Now, I'm okay with arty not effectively being able to hit moving targets except with splash and even that every other christmas, but having trouble to hit a stand-still AT8 when fully aimed is BS. I've gotten ambushed and two-shotted with Nashorns without ever seeing the bloody big box with mile-long gun more than oneshotted by arty EVER. There might not be map tweaks that will fix that, but the (possible) tinkering with TD camo might at least allow a single answering shot.

Still, I believe there's really a chance that maps will grow more bush and steep hills to hide behind, no matter it'll hurt mobile playstyle. The most vocal WoT community members tend to favor TDs and have at least distaste towards SPGs (or I'm really, really badly reading the forums wrong). At some point SPGs will be gone at this ratio; replaced by arty strikes (gold purchase, of course) and possibly air cover.

Considering SPG similiarities, I've still to wade high enough to notice such thing. Most SPGs I've driven have been really varied and country differences are pretty obvious at lower tiers. Liked french line until nerfs, now favoring british. No boredom yet, must be the pace change in between 5 tiers upstreams scouting matches, manouvering with meds, brawling with heavies and sniping with TDs. I'd love to see that continue, as when the variation is removed, there's only the math and matchmaking.