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[motorbitch]

how should play longer help me buying more expensive ammo?
the point is, if i use the more expensive ammo, playing longer wont get me more credits. you cant grind to pay for premium ammo on a regular basis.
premium tank + premium account will make enough money to pay for it, but here we are again: free to loose.

[dogstile]

Only guns that will be more effective are HE. Every gun only gets increased pen with their rounds. If you angle and you're in the right tank you can still bounce pretty much everything, so I don't see the problem.

[Rex_Nex]

how should play longer help me buying more expensive ammo?
the point is, if i use the more expensive ammo, playing longer wont get me more credits. you cant grind to pay for premium ammo on a regular basis.
premium tank + premium account will make enough money to pay for it, but here we are again: free to loose.

You aren't supposed to use the expensive ammo every game. I have a premium account (this is rare, usually I play without spending any money) and I still won't use it every game. Premium players have to use normal rounds for the majority of their shots too, or they will be in the red also. Premium tanks, maybe not, but that's an issue I already said should be fixed.

Most players are only going to bring 3-4 shells into the match. If you're bringing more then that and as a result can't make money, the problem is no longer you wanting to be on even grounds with everyone, it's that you want to have an advantage over everyone. Advantages aren't free. Before, gold round users had an advantage you could never get, but now all you have to do is play a tier 5 a couple of matches and suddenly you've got the same exact gear. This isn't an improvement to you?

And yes, you can grind for gold rounds on a regular basis. One game in a M4 sherman should sustain 10-15 gold rounds in a higher tiered tank, which should last you at least half a dozen matches.

Only guns that will be more effective are HE. Every gun only gets increased pen with their rounds. If you angle and you're in the right tank you can still bounce pretty much everything, so I don't see the problem.

All guns are more effective with premium ammo. My T34's pen goes from slightly above IS-3 levels to slightly above Object 704 levels with it. HE gets a much bigger boost, sure, but the pen boost for AP rounds is great. I will sure as heck benefit from being able to frontally pen tier 10s.

Also, some cannons get more damage and pen. For example, the Konisch on the VK3601 and several of the new british tanks get a good 100 point damage boost.

[motorbitch]

uh, one round in m4 nets 10 - 15 premium shells.
interesting. at 10 -12 gold for a tier7 heavy tank round, thats about 4500 credits. so you net 45000 - 60000  credits per m4 round before premium.
thats cool bro. you must be a complete pro whiping out the enemy team sole handed on a regular basis.

[Rex_Nex]

Alright, then half that. The point still stands. You can do it, it just takes more work. When you can explain why this change is not making any improvement in the p2w'ness of the game, let me know. 5-6 premium rounds will last you 2-3 matches, which is fine enough for me.

[motorbitch]

even if your rather optimistic calculation will proove true, you completely ignore all other purposes of credits then spending it on premium ammo.
by focussing on the single point if or if not it would be possible to buy some few rounds of premium ammo without premium account / premium tank, you loose the point: if this change will improve the situation for free players, or make it worse.

albeit, you accidently made a point for my claim, by doing some calculations that show that it would even require grinding to play normal rounds leaving no income to buy new tanks / crew / consumables / modules.

[dogstile]

You just won our argument for us. If people are trying to grind money, they won't be using premium rounds. There's the tradeoff. Not If you're playing to have fun in your favourite tank, then you just play it and spend money on premium rounds. If you're not, you make do with being slightly less effective in exchange for grinding up to new tanks. Not everyone will be using prem rounds. If anything, this will just make fucking about in your mess about tank more fun. My KV-2 is going to become a nightmare for anyone at my tier. I'm a free player btw. 

Now, because you have to choose between grinding for more credits and not making money, then the choice isn't even different from trying to grind up late tier tanks. Because its the same tradeoff there.

[Rex_Nex]

even if your rather optimistic calculation will proove true, you completely ignore all other purposes of credits then spending it on premium ammo.
by focussing on the single point if or if not it would be possible to buy some few rounds of premium ammo without premium account / premium tank, you loose the point: if this change will improve the situation for free players, or make it worse.

albeit, you accidently made a point for my claim, by doing some calculations that show that it would even require grinding to play normal rounds leaving no income to buy new tanks / crew / consumables / modules.

Your original point is not whether or not this will improve the situation for free players. Your point was that it doesn't remove any pay-to-win from the game. Remember what you were originally arguing about or your arguments start to become shoddy.

I'll go over this one more time; P2W is gone because you can buy gold rounds by grinding more. You can make this easier on yourself by buying premium, but that just means that you are paying for convenience, not paying to win.

That right there is a fact, there's nothing controversial about whether or not grinding more will give you an advantage previously only available for gold players.

Also, what dogstile said. If it is really that volatile to use premium ammo, free players won't use premium ammo. If most of the playerbase is no longer using premium ammo... well, then you no longer should have a problem with it. It's the same as before, except you can get it with a little elbow grease if you so desire.

[motorbitch]

i dont see where any of my argumens become shoddy, nor where i changed my position. it was and is:

this change will make the game more free to loose, not free to win. my prognosis is, premium users will use more premium ammo, free users will barely be able to afford it.

[Rex_Nex]

You "utterly disagreed" with me saying that it "removes almost all of the p2w". There's really no other way to take that other then "I dont think it removes almost all the p2w".

What you're saying now is that you agree with me, but it also makes life harder for free players. That is different.

Life won't get much harder then it was already. Premium players can buy some premium ammo, but now free players can buy it too, just less of it (without grinding, at least). That's the typical way it goes for F2P games like this. They either go pay to win, or they go with pay for convenience.

I know it's annoying to not have the convenience of not having to grind nearly as much. I am almost always in that same boat of having to grind a ton. However, I'd MUCH rather have a system that will give me an advantage by playing then a system that flat out disregards that work and gives the advantages to those that paid.

Does it mean that more players will be slugging gold while free players won't be able to do it much? Yes, but only because those free players aren't bothering to grind up enough cash to do it.

[Maldevious]

Which server/timezone are you in?

I'm Eastern Standard Time (US), and the server says "WoT"

[Rex_Nex]

Ah, if you're from the US you are on the US server, awesome

Im in the EST too. I'd definitely grind some low tiers with you, but I'm going to be out for a couple days.

There's no real B12 "group", but it's pretty easy to just slap them onto your friends list and bug them when they go online I know we have Rilder, adwarf, BuriBuri, and a couple others over here.

[motorbitch]

yeah. if it gives you sobriety, i agree with you. exept for:
" won't get much harder then it was already" and "What you're saying now is that you agree with me"

no, we have different oppinions here. proably caused by
A: youre premium user and i am not and
B: youre maby a more optimistic person then i am.
but, im fine with that. the future shall show us what will happen. wg seems to have realised that they have to even the ground between paying and free users (even if this step fails in adressing the issue imo). now, if the results of this change should not show the desired effect, maby we will see another change in the future.

[Maldevious]

Wanted to see if anyone had any tips for grinding a tank with a poor stock weapon. For example, my tier 4 SU-5 SPG currently mounts the same gun as my (awesome) SU-26 did, but is a tier higher, and going up against Tier 8 heavies in about half its matches.  Is there any thing to do besides just grind away and hope to have a few lucky shots at some TDs and lights in these matches? Or do you have any other tips?

[Nadaka]

Wanted to see if anyone had any tips for grinding a tank with a poor stock weapon. For example, my tier 4 SU-5 SPG currently mounts the same gun as my (awesome) SU-26 did, but is a tier higher, and going up against Tier 8 heavies in about half its matches.  Is there any thing to do besides just grind away and hope to have a few lucky shots at some TDs and lights in these matches? Or do you have any other tips?

Do:
Learn the weak points for tanks.

Maneuver so you can attack the enemy from behind or with excellent cover.

Stay close to other friendly tanks.

Consider:
Play till you get a x2/x3/x5 xp win and then switch to a different tank, repeat every day. This takes more time, but fewer matches.

Wait till you get a double xp weekend for that tank. This takes more time, but fewer matches.